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Old 06-29-2011, 04:20 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989 View Post
Nevertheless there still is an investment - they're being taught and trained there. You'd have wasted resources either way because you could have been teaching another person who'd remain in the country instead (assuming the college-educated illegal is deported) - opportunity cost.
This so-called investment would be wiped out by the added competition for our jobs and resources. I say cut the losses now. The only opportunity that exists are for them, not us.

As I said, most Americans disagree with having to educate illegal foreigners anyway so in that sense it was an unathorized investment on our part. We have no more obligation to them in regards to education once they complete 12th grade. They would do their own countries well to take that education and fix them. If enough of them do that perhaps they will have a more educated citizenry down the road and less peasants to send our way to steal our education dollars, resources, taxes and jobs. Maybe finally the cycle would end and in the long this would be a benefit to us.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:22 PM
 
1,759 posts, read 1,698,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
The answer is YES it does make sense to send them packing. We don't need competition for jobs from foreigners in this country. Jobs are scarce in this country. Is that what you call fear?
"Fear" is what someone brings up when they don't have a leg to stand on.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:32 AM
 
34 posts, read 36,322 times
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chicagonut how beneficial these type of laws are in the long run is questionable - certainly businesses such as farmers will be mostly affected by the laws and most would either shut down or move their operations elsewhere, no doubt about it. The economic consequences could reach further than that as most of you rule out just how much illegals contribute to the economy (in tax revenue and even NORMAL consumption expenditure) - you're only on about how much they cost the economy.

The consequences will go far beyond economic ones even social ones -recall the controversy SB1070 stirred both nationally and internationally. We (non Americans) always thought of the US as the Land of the free and the tolerant. I can't begin to imagine how much more racist people would become as a result of such legislation.

You try to blame your fiscal imbalances on illegal immigrants. You blame crime rates on illegal immigrants rather than try to fix your gun laws; handing guns to mentally ill (documented) American citizens that go on shooting sprees.

In spite of this, I just really hope I'm proven otherwise [that as most of you here claim there would be tremendous benefits for the country]
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:35 AM
 
17,286 posts, read 24,984,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989 View Post
chicagonut how beneficial these type of laws are in the long run is questionable - certainly businesses such as farmers will be mostly affected by the laws and most would either shut down or move their operations elsewhere, no doubt about it.
Or, they will have to raise wages to attract American born workers, or work to get more visas for migrant workers. If they still cannot find workers without relying on pseudo slave wages and conditions, then they have no business being in business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989
The economic consequences could reach further than that as most of you rule out just how much illegals contribute to the economy (in tax revenue and even NORMAL consumption expenditure) - you're only on about how much they cost the economy.
No amount of consumption or taxes can EVER make up for the amount of social services the typical illegal family with just one child (most will have several). It costs $5k per child AT LEAST to educate. It costs thousands more in WIC, foodstamps, housing assistance, medicaid, etc. Not to mention child tax credits.

The guy pulling beets at the farm for $8.00/hour is NEVER EVER going to generate enough taxes to pay for his family.

America is full-up of the the impoverished. This isn't the 1900s anymore, where nobody was guaranteed social services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989
The consequences will go far beyond economic ones even social ones -recall the controversy SB1070 stirred both nationally and internationally. We (non Americans) always thought of the US as the Land of the free and the tolerant. I can't begin to imagine how much more racist people would become as a result of such legislation.
There was no "international controversy" among ANYONE but Latin American countries, who are so broken and defunct (and HYPOCRITICAL) that they couldn't imagine not having the United States as a safety valve to send their impoverished and unwanted brown citizens.

Check the illegal immigration policies of Mexico recently? How about the immigration policies of China, Japan, or Russia? Again, there was NO outrage, the pouting Mexicans and Shakira being notable exceptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989
You try to blame your fiscal imbalances on illegal immigrants.
Oh, fiscal imbalances are multi-faceted. BUT, if we're going to start cutting back social services for Americans, you better believe uninvited "guests" and their by-default eligible children are no longer going to be "welcomed" with open arms into the "system."

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989
You blame crime rates on illegal immigrants rather than try to fix your gun laws; handing guns to mentally ill (documented) American citizens that go on shooting sprees.
Right. Crime rates are because of gun laws. I guess that's what compels a HUGE, disproportionate percentage of California prisons and gangs to be filled with illegal immigrants.

(Care to gander how much law enforcement, court and justice system resources are spent dealing directly and indirectly with illegal immigrant crime? We have more than enough of our own American crime, thank you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989
In spite of this, I just really hope I'm proven otherwise [that as most of you here claim there would be tremendous benefits for the country]
America is right now taking care of and raising approximately 10% of its southern neighbor's populace. There has to be a breaking point, eventually.

Tell you what though. I know of a couple of homeless guys downtown. Give me your address, and I will move them in with you. They will sleep on your couch (i'm sure you have extra room), and will do chores for you. Only catch is that you have to feed them, and if you try to get them to leave, you'll be labelled an anti-homeless bigot.

Feel free to PM me your contact information.

Last edited by TriMT7; 06-30-2011 at 08:44 AM..
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:42 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.1989 View Post
chicagonut how beneficial these type of laws are in the long run is questionable - certainly businesses such as farmers will be mostly affected by the laws and most would either shut down or move their operations elsewhere, no doubt about it. The economic consequences could reach further than that as most of you rule out just how much illegals contribute to the economy (in tax revenue and even NORMAL consumption expenditure) - you're only on about how much they cost the economy.

The consequences will go far beyond economic ones even social ones -recall the controversy SB1070 stirred both nationally and internationally. We (non Americans) always thought of the US as the Land of the free and the tolerant. I can't begin to imagine how much more racist people would become as a result of such legislation.

You try to blame your fiscal imbalances on illegal immigrants. You blame crime rates on illegal immigrants rather than try to fix your gun laws; handing guns to mentally ill (documented) American citizens that go on shooting sprees.

In spite of this, I just really hope I'm proven otherwise [that as most of you here claim there would be tremendous benefits for the country]
How many times does it have to be stated in here that there are unlimited H-2A visas for agricultural workers before that argument is put to rest?

If any business has to shut down because they can't hire illegal workers anymore and they move their business out of the country, what is the difference in regards to the loss of American jobs? Either way, Americans lose.

I suggest to search this forum for all the stats on costs vs so-called benefits to our economy. You will find that they are a net negative.

So you are a non-citizen? I just love it when foreigners try to tell us how to run our country and think they can tell us what is best for us. Land of the free doesn't mean we are a "free-for-all". We have to control immigration for the obvious reasons. We ARE a tolerant nation. We take in 1 million legal immigrants a year. A number that would be based on our needs and without negatively impacting our own. Is that intolerance to you? We have immigrants from all over the world here. How is that being intolerant of anyone?

No one has blamed all of the woes of this country stictly on illegal aliens but they are a contributing factor.

Ah, the race card has finally reared its ugly head with you. Welcome to my "ignore list". Bye!
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Blue Ridge
20,900 posts, read 22,717,518 times
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Quote:
Seems pretty silly I mean we currently have a major nursing shortage in the U.S.
We don't have a major nursing shortage. We have corporate run facilities that don't give nurses full time schedules. They're trying to fit the schedules with part time nurses in order to not pay benefits or overtime.


Quote:
How many times does it have to be stated in here that there are unlimited H-2A visas for agricultural workers before that argument is put to rest?
Thats not the issue. The issue is that he fines related to hiring illegals is substantially less than following H-2A guidelines. The fines are per incident and not per person.


Quote:
They are educated in the States and they go back to their homeland
And then they come back on H1B visas.
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Old 06-30-2011, 01:28 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
We don't have a major nursing shortage. We have corporate run facilities that don't give nurses full time schedules. They're trying to fit the schedules with part time nurses in order to not pay benefits or overtime.




Thats not the issue. The issue is that he fines related to hiring illegals is substantially less than following H-2A guidelines. The fines are per incident and not per person.




And then they come back on H1B visas.
H-2A visas become the issue when the pro-illgals keep claiming that the crops would wilt on the vines without illegal alien pickers. This simply is not true. If they want their crops to get picked and they no longer have illegals around to do it they will choose to use the H-2A visas instead.
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Blue Ridge
20,900 posts, read 22,717,518 times
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Quote:
If they want their crops to get picked and they no longer have illegals around to do it they will choose to use the H-2A visas instead.
And the only way to do that is to increase the fine, and enforce it, so high that they will not even think of hiring illegals.
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:38 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
And the only way to do that is to increase the fine, and enforce it, so high that they will not even think of hiring illegals.
I said "if they no longer have illegals around to pick crops". Did you miss that part? I do agree however, as long as they are still around the fine for hiring them should be steeper than the profits from hiring them.
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:02 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
Reputation: 22167
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
H-2A visas become the issue when the pro-illgals keep claiming that the crops would wilt on the vines without illegal alien pickers. This simply is not true. If they want their crops to get picked and they no longer have illegals around to do it they will choose to use the H-2A visas instead.
And how much better and safer it is for the guest workers to come here legally.

Those coming on H2A visas are far less likely to be found in some mass burial pit in some northern Mexican state. A legal guest worker can board a bus, does not have to find a cartel criminal ring to be smuggled over the border, in fact does not have to associate with any criminal on his trip over the border.

The legal guest worker can safely cross through the legal ports of entry, and be safely transported to the job site.

Why do the so-called pro-illegals prefer the unventilated semi trailers, box cars, and dangerous hikes through the desert to the safe legal way?

Is their greed for easy money through cheap illegal labor so great that they prefer deaths on the border to legal H2A visas? The downside to H2A visas is that the guest worker must also be paid a legal wage and other laws must be followed so they aren't abused and simply exploited.
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