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View Poll Results: Which choice is worse for America?
Outsource to foreign country 11 47.83%
Hire illegal immigrants 12 52.17%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-01-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Many people would be HAPPY working for 10 an hour LEGALLY so your poll is a fail. Especialy when unemployment checks ends.
I was just going off of an earlier number I thought I read for average illegal wage in construction. I just went looking for that citation and ran into this article stating household illegal income to be $45k nationally. If that's 2 earners with full time jobs then it's over $11 an hour. That's using the oft quoted around here CIS numbers along with the census.

We're close enough to reality that I don't think $10 an hour should be that big of a stumbling block for ya in answering the question.

Illegal Immigrants in Md. and Va. Out-Earn U.S. Peers, Study Says - washingtonpost.com
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
You forgot to add Option "C" both are worse.
Quote:
Both of these are happening today, so it shouldn't be too foreign of a hypothetical to reason out. Also, if you think the company is evil and greedy and blah, blah, blah, you could be right. But still let me know which is the lesser of two evils that this evil company could choose.
Let's say you listed all of the things that could happen in this scenario in order of best for America to worst for America. This list could include scenario options like the project doesn't happen, the company finds a leprechan with a pot of gold to help fund it stateside, and the CEO gets AIDS and calls the whole thing off. All I want to know is where are these two options relative to each other.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,116 posts, read 20,148,778 times
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What about allowing Foriegn Companies to come here and force down wages to exploit our cheap labor like they do in the south. Third World we are here
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
How could bringing an impoverished class into the USA and paying dirt wages without job benefits and refusing to hire Americans be beneficial in any way?
A) it helps those people be less impoverished
B) it brings customers into the country for other industries
C) taxes are paid either directly or indirectly
D) progress for that company for it gets a job done that otherwise they may not have done

Those are some things to consider. I am in no way saying outright that all of these 4 things are worth the costs you bring up later, but if you're really looking for an answer that's a few reasons why it "could" be beneficial in any way.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:09 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Originally Posted by BannedInTheUSA View Post
A) it helps those people be less impoverished
B) it brings customers into the country for other industries
C) taxes are paid either directly or indirectly
D) progress for that company for it gets a job done that otherwise they may not have done

Those are some things to consider. I am in no way saying outright that all of these 4 things are worth the costs you bring up later, but if you're really looking for an answer that's a few reasons why it "could" be beneficial in any way.
A)" it helps those people be less impoverished"

But makes our own people more impoverished. Yeah, that's a good argument!

As for B, C and D those things would occur with citizen labor also.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
but also if it's all about cheap labor, the labor is cheaper if outsourced because the costs of living in the USA are much higher than in other countries.
If there is a fatal flaw in the hypothetical, you may have found it. But I think I may have 2 rebuttals that get it close enough to reality (at least in my head).

A) I think we all agree that illegal immigrants probably live a little below the US normal standard of living. We've all heard about the 10 people in a 2 bedroom apt and seen the toyota truck with way too many people crammed in.

B) As somebody who's managed a team of outsourced Indian workers at a previous job, I can tell you that they require extra management. They may have been cheaper by the hour, but I had to spend extra time spelling out problems, holding their hand through solutions, and fixing bad code after they were done. I know not every work situation is exactly the same, but there must be some similarities.

I've never hired an illegal (one guy from panama who lost his green card one time and I joked about getting him deported), but at least when somebody is working closer to you there is more chance for interaction and catching a problem early, before it becomes a big problem later. And I find less complete communication breakdowns where they are done face to face other than by email or skype or going through somebody elses boss to relay the message.

So while I admit the possible flaw, I'm not sure it's fatal.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:19 AM
 
19 posts, read 12,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
A)" it helps those people be less impoverished"

But makes our own people more impoverished. Yeah, that's a good argument!
You're right, I acknowledged that people may not think these things were worth the costs.

Quote:
As for B, C and D those things would occur with citizen labor also.
Not sure if you read the OP, but if you're talking about citizen labor you're already off topic.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:48 AM
 
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Most of these responses have been anti-illegal, and yet anti-outsourcing is winning the poll. Doesn't seem they are brave enough to dominate the responses.

I will say that I voted for outsourcing being worse, mainly because people making money in America spend some of that in America. More money spent here creates jobs here. Money sent overseas helps that country with having a capital infusion, but it's mostly going to be spent over there helping them create jobs. So that's my protectionist preference.
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BannedInTheUSA View Post
Most of these responses have been anti-illegal, and yet anti-outsourcing is winning the poll. Doesn't seem they are brave enough to dominate the responses.

I will say that I voted for outsourcing being worse, mainly because people making money in America spend some of that in America. More money spent here creates jobs here. Money sent overseas helps that country with having a capital infusion, but it's mostly going to be spent over there helping them create jobs. So that's my protectionist preference.
They also send a whole heck of a lot of money out of the country not to be spent here.

Outsourcing in my opinion wins because if you refuse to employ Americans then take your business elsewhere and employ the people you want in their own communities and keep them close to their family and societal support systems.

That would improve the other economies and societies at the very least. Breaking up families, removing people from their cultural and social support systems is not benefitting anyone. Juarez Mexico is a good example, at one time it was a smallish sleepy border town but the massive influx of people from elsewhere helped make for the instability and high rate of crime. The city could not handle the huge influx of people -- cheap labor types for the maquilas who could not contribute enough to the needed infrastructure.

Massive migrations of people may result from social instability and injustice but they also result in more social instability and injustice. There is a better way and that is to have plans that add to the stability of neighboring nations instead.
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:10 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
They also send a whole heck of a lot of money out of the country not to be spent here.

Outsourcing in my opinion wins because if you refuse to employ Americans then take your business elsewhere and employ the people you want in their own communities and keep them close to their family and societal support systems.

That would improve the other economies and societies at the very least. Breaking up families, removing people from their cultural and social support systems is not benefitting anyone. Juarez Mexico is a good example, at one time it was a smallish sleepy border town but the massive influx of people from elsewhere helped make for the instability and high rate of crime. The city could not handle the huge influx of people -- cheap labor types for the maquilas who could not contribute enough to the needed infrastructure.

Massive migrations of people may result from social instability and injustice but they also result in more social instability and injustice. There is a better way and that is to have plans that add to the stability of neighboring nations instead.
Not only that but with illegal immigration there are less jobs for Americans. So if Americans had these jobs being held by illegals they in turn would be the creators of jobs here and all of their money would be spent in our own economy rather then sending a lot of it out of the country back to their homelands as the illegals do.
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