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Old 07-05-2011, 08:32 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 790,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Apparently a lot.

So, to prevent criminals from breaking into our country, we should make immigration requirements more lax so that criminals can now come the legal way. Yes, that sounds extremely logical.
They wouldn't be criminals if coming here weren't a crime. So what would your objection be then?
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:34 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 790,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
There is NO LAW that is on the books stating that, it is an assumed claim.
Yeah, nothing except that pesky constitution.

Spoiler
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:35 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 790,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
The doors are already opened up.
oh, right.

no, wait, they aren't.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:05 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
They wouldn't be criminals if coming here weren't a crime. So what would your objection be then?
That we don't need millions of low skilled high school drop outs who don't speak English? Right now it is a crime. We said no. They said f-that and came here uninivited.

Again why should the first thing you do when you come to another country is break the law? Do you litter when you visit other people's homes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
oh, right.

no, wait, they aren't.
Like hell they aren't. They're just not wide open to people who don't have any skills.

We let in literally about a million people a year. That sounds rather wide open. The largest group of illegals by nationality are Mexicans. We've literally let about in eight move here legally? How many are we supposed to accommodate? Are we really supposed to let in every moron who doesn't speak English or have job skills here? Why? We have literally millions of people already here who can't find jobs. Why are we supposed to add even more?

Why should a minority of the world's people be deemed responsible for meeting the economic dreams of the world's poor? Or those unable to make it in the world's 12th largest economy because they dropped out of high school?

If you can't do something legally here's a thought: DON'T DO IT!

If you really want to change the law on immigration at least change it to something sensible. Having a relative here should count for absolutely nothing at all. No line jumping for well connected peasants. The laws should be about one thing and one thing only: who can benefit Americans. If you can't then you shouldn't even be allowed to get in line. If you want to see your grandma go visit her back in Guatemala.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:08 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,245,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
They wouldn't be criminals if coming here weren't a crime. So what would your objection be then?
No one said coming here was a crime. But sneaking in here uninvited is a crime. Please try to understand the difference, if you can.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
No one said coming here was a crime. But sneaking in here uninvited is a crime. Please try to understand the difference, if you can.
I do understand that it's a crime. The point is that what is legal and illegal in positive terms is different than what is right and wrong in normative terms.

If your only concern is people following the law, then YES, it makes sense to reform immigration laws and make it much, much easier for people to enter the US.

Quote:
to prevent criminals from breaking into our country, we should make immigration requirements more lax so that criminals can now come the legal way.
YES. why WOULDN'T you support this if your only concern is making sure that people who enter do so legally, in a manner where they can be properly screened?
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:22 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 790,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
That we don't need millions of low skilled high school drop outs who don't speak English? Right now it is a crime. We said no. They said f-that and came here uninivited.
Who is "we"? I sure didn't say no.

Quote:
Again why should the first thing you do when you come to another country is break the law? Do you litter when you visit other people's homes?
It SHOULDN'T be the first thing you do. So why rig things such that it's NECESSARY to break the law? What purpose is being served?

Quote:
Like hell they aren't. They're just not wide open to people who don't have any skills.
Sorry, but "only letting people I like in" is not the same as "wide open".

Quote:
We let in literally about a million people a year. That sounds rather wide open. The largest group of illegals by nationality are Mexicans. We've literally let about in eight move here legally? How many are we supposed to accommodate? Are we really supposed to let in every moron who doesn't speak English or have job skills here? Why? We have literally millions of people already here who can't find jobs. Why are we supposed to add even more?
I don't know who "we" is you keep referring to. I don't want YOU to be forced to accomodate anyone. And I don't really see what difference it makes if the largest group is Mexican. Is that supposed to be extra scary or something? I keep hearing that people don't care about particular ethinic groups and only care about THE LAW but we keep getting these statistics about mexicans thrown around.

Quote:
Why should a minority of the world's people be deemed responsible for meeting the economic dreams of the world's poor? Or those unable to make it in the world's 12th largest economy because they dropped out of high school?
They shouldn't.

Quote:
If you can't do something legally here's a thought: DON'T DO IT!
This simplistic philosophy assumes that all laws are inherently just. But they're not.

Quote:
If you really want to change the law on immigration at least change it to something sensible. Having a relative here should count for absolutely nothing at all. No line jumping for well connected peasants. The laws should be about one thing and one thing only: who can benefit Americans. If you can't then you shouldn't even be allowed to get in line. If you want to see your grandma go visit her back in Guatemala.
How about we change it where YOU being born here counts for "absolutely nothing at all". If YOU had to go through the same ridiculous hoops that people born on the other side of that imaginary line had to jump through, what do you think the chances of you being good enough to make the cut are?
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:29 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I do understand that it's a crime. The point is that what is legal and illegal in positive terms is different than what is right and wrong in normative terms.

If your only concern is people following the law, then YES, it makes sense to reform immigration laws and make it much, much easier for people to enter the US.



YES. why WOULDN'T you support this if your only concern is making sure that people who enter do so legally, in a manner where they can be properly screened?
Why is it moral to sneak to another country without permission? Especially if your intent is to either take a job at lowered wage or ask the residents of said country to give you money to support yourself when you don't pay taxes there? And why should Americans welcome people who do this?
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Who is "we"? I sure didn't say no.
The American public did. Don't we get in say in how our country is run?

Quote:
It SHOULDN'T be the first thing you do. So why rig things such that it's NECESSARY to break the law? What purpose is being served?
Why is necessary to break America's immigration laws? Are we the only place people can get what they want or need? The purpose of America's immigration laws are the same purpose that every country has immigration laws for: to control who comes here.

Why do Americans owe the world anything else?

Quote:
Sorry, but "only letting people I like in" is not the same as "wide open".
Whether your side admits it or not a million people a year is pretty wide open. That's a lot of people. It's just not every single person. Given the billions who would come here if we did it can never be. America cannot sustain two billion people.

Quote:
I don't know who "we" is you keep referring to. I don't want YOU to be forced to accomodate anyone. And I don't really see what difference it makes if the largest group is Mexican. Is that supposed to be extra scary or something? I keep hearing that people don't care about particular ethinic groups and only care about THE LAW but we keep getting these statistics about mexicans thrown around.
The we is the American public. The American taxpayer. Those of us who live here and pay the bills. Those of us who have consistently voted against an open borders policy that would strangle us economically. We have a representative democracy. That deserves respect even if you disagree with the results.

As for the fact that the majority of illegals are from Mexico that also makes a difference. Mexico is not impoverished. Mexicans have no right to demand that we admit all Mexicans who come here. Especially their ill educated underclass. Caring for said underclass is a Mexican problem not an American one. When Mexicans stop being a majority of illegals, when Hispanic legislators stop demanding special privileges for their ethnic cohorts, when Mexico's president stops demanding that we meet the needs of his peasant class then we will stop talking about Mexico.

Quote:
They shouldn't.
That is the net result of most pro-illegal arguments on this subjects. Americans are told they either meet the economic needs of the world's underclass or they are racists.

That's unfair.

Quote:
This simplistic philosophy assumes that all laws are inherently just. But they're not.
The only simplistic philosophy is the pro-illegal argument. It assumes that American immigration laws should be shaped to solely meet the needs of the world's underclass. And if Americans object to that ludicrous notion well they are ill informed, arrogant racists.

Quote:
How about we change it where YOU being born here counts for "absolutely nothing at all". If YOU had to go through the same ridiculous hoops that people born on the other side of that imaginary line had to jump through, what do you think the chances of you being good enough to make the cut are?
You know what?

Everyone gets a country. Get over it.

The lines aren't any more imaginary than the lines on your property or the walls of your house. No American has to justify being an American because someone in Mexico wants to drop out of high school, sneak into this country, work ten years here without paying taxes and then go home.

I'm heartily sick of this notion that being an American makes a you bad person or being an illegal makes you a good one. People have a country. Let them fix it up or make demands on their rulers instead of coming here and demanding things from natives.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:53 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 790,529 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Why is it moral to sneak to another country without permission? Especially if your intent is to either take a job at lowered wage or ask the residents of said country to give you money to support yourself when you don't pay taxes there? And why should Americans welcome people who do this?
If I say that you should just stay in your house and never come out, is it immoral for you to ignore my demands?

What's immoral about competing for jobs? I just got quotes for some new carpet in my house, is the guy that bid $200 lower than the other guy immoral???

If you don't want to give a guy money then by all means stop giving a guy money. But if you start some sort of money giveaway program and then you figure out people you don't like are getting your money and you get all mad about it, well, that's your problem.

As for welcoming them, I don't really care if you do or not. Just stop interfering with those who do.
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