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Old 07-06-2011, 12:56 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
I'm heartily sick of this notion that being an American makes a you bad person or being an illegal makes you a good one.
Where have I said either of these?
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:18 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,999 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
If I say that you should just stay in your house and never come out, is it immoral for you to ignore my demands?
Being asked to obey American immigration laws is not the same thing as house arrest.

Quote:
What's immoral about competing for jobs? I just got quotes for some new carpet in my house, is the guy that bid $200 lower than the other guy immoral???
What if he wants to do it for less than minimum wage? And then ask the guy next door for help with food and rent so he can do this? How is that fair? Why should an employer have the right to ask the rest of us to subsidize his profit?

Quote:
If you don't want to give a guy money then by all means stop giving a guy money. But if you start some sort of money giveaway program and then you figure out people you don't like are getting your money and you get all mad about it, well, that's your problem.
Huh? Since when it is okay to walk into someone's house and ask them for money? Supporting my relatives is not the same thing as being commanded to support the rest of the world.

Quote:
As for welcoming them, I don't really care if you do or not. Just stop interfering with those who do.
Why should I ignore people who want to break our laws? And their helpers? Especially when your "welcome" consists of asking your fellow Americans to accept more taxes, learn a foreign language and cope with lowered wages?

You advocate for what you feel is in your alleged self interest. I will advocate for what is in mine. When those desires clash I'm not going to let you do whatever you want without a fight.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:21 PM
 
89 posts, read 39,370 times
Reputation: 22
Citizens don't have to "cope" with lower wages. They can also elect to work harder and be worth more to their employers than the immigrants are.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:30 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEHMarten View Post
Citizens don't have to "cope" with lower wages. They can also elect to work harder and be worth more to their employers than the immigrants are.
Taking out the added profits that the greedy employers get by hiring illegal aliens what makes you think that Americans don't work just as hard or harder as they do? If you think these employers are hiring illegals because they work harder then you aren't dealing in reality.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:43 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,242,105 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEHMarten View Post
Citizens don't have to "cope" with lower wages. They can also elect to work harder and be worth more to their employers than the immigrants are.
Citizens can work as hard as they can, but employers will still choose to hire the illegals due to lower pay.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:45 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Citizens can work as hard as they can, but employers will still choose to hire the illegals due to lower pay.
OK? This isn't inherently unjust. You obviously see zero problem with two Americans competing.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:35 PM
 
89 posts, read 39,370 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Citizens can work as hard as they can, but employers will still choose to hire the illegals due to lower pay.
Yeah. Some people choose to buy Fords. Others choose to buy Cadillacs. People buy different qualities of clothing, food, homes, computer software, airline tickets, and anything else. Different companies choose to produce different qualities of goods. If the American citizen worker is not willing to match the wage the immigrant will work for, he or she can produce a better product. They also can offer superior English skills. These will be valuable to employers who value putting out top quality products instead of cheap ones.

I think Americans can produce higher quality products than immigrants, often due to their superior training and education. Such Americans don't have to fear immigration, because they can compete against immigrants successfully.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:45 PM
 
15,387 posts, read 8,684,668 times
Reputation: 13775
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
They wouldn't be criminals if coming here weren't a crime. So what would your objection be then?
What a stupid argument. If murder wasn't a crime, then the murderer wouldn't be a criminal?

And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus.....
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:51 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
What a stupid argument. If murder wasn't a crime, then the murderer wouldn't be a criminal?
Uh, yes, correct. The reason murder is wrong is not because it's a crime.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:14 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Being asked to obey American immigration laws is not the same thing as house arrest.
Yes, I understand that. It's a hypothetical analogy. Can you answer the question?

Quote:
What if he wants to do it for less than minimum wage? And then ask the guy next door for help with food and rent so he can do this? How is that fair? Why should an employer have the right to ask the rest of us to subsidize his profit?
What's magical about the minimum wage, exactly? This is a huge red herring because the illegals we're talking about are almost all making more than minimum wage anyway.

What's unfair about asking the guy next door for help? Is the guy next door obligated to help just because someone asks him? None of this has anything to do with this situation.

Quote:
Huh? Since when it is okay to walk into someone's house and ask them for money? Supporting my relatives is not the same thing as being commanded to support the rest of the world.
Wait, illegal immigrants commanded you to set up a welfare system? Wow, this is news to me. If you don't like the way the welfare system is set up, take it up with the people who set it up.

Quote:
Why should I ignore people who want to break our laws? And their helpers? Especially when your "welcome" consists of asking your fellow Americans to accept more taxes, learn a foreign language and cope with lowered wages?
lol the old "we're being forced to learn spanish" bellyache. Seriously, this just reeks of lazy entitlement syndrome.

* the tax argument is bogus. Illegals pay taxes, more than citizens doing the same work
* the "we gotta learn spanish" argument is bogus. the workforce has always been improving, more skills are expected than were expected 10 years ago, and that's always been the case. If you don't want to learn spanish, or math, or computer basics, that's fine, but you're excluding yourself from jobs. You expect the whole world to stop moving just so YOU don't have to learn something new? Give me a break.
* the "lower wages" argument is bogus as well. This is a global economy. If you want to command higher wages, you need to provide more value. Keeping low-skill workers out will help some, but only for a portion of the workforce. Global forces are going to drive the price of labor regardless.

It's pretty hilarious that you complain about other people just trying to get a job lowering your wages (the audacity!) while simultaneously complaining about having to do anything that might actually improve your productivity and attractiveness to employers.

Quote:
You advocate for what you feel is in your alleged self interest. I will advocate for what is in mine. When those desires clash I'm not going to let you do whatever you want without a fight.
So basically I'm just minding your own business and you're going to violently interfere just because you want an easy, fat paycheck?
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