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Old 07-06-2011, 07:00 PM
 
89 posts, read 39,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
? We don't charge the children of murderers with murder, just like we don't charge the children of illegal immigrants with illegally immigrating. Did you think about this for more than three seconds?
More significantly, we're not "rewarding" the children of illegal immigrants any more than we are "rewarding" the children of murderers. Both are treated exactly the same under the law: as US citizens.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
? We don't charge the children of murderers with murder, just like we don't charge the children of illegal immigrants with illegally immigrating. Did you think about this for more than three seconds?
How are they being punished? Are they being arrested, incarcerated, or even fined? No.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:53 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How are they being punished? Are they being arrested, incarcerated, or even fined? No.
Who? The anchor babies?
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:14 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,241,612 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
I'm sick of hearing that immigrating here is difficult. If you qualify, it is not difficult at all. It can be lengthy with a lot of paperwork, but it's not actually hard. You just have to have a room temperature IQ and some patience. You don't even need a lawyer. Been there and done it...got my ex-husband a green card here (when he was still my husband) and it was a piece of cake. Really. It took about a year but the process can be completed in less time. I've seen it happen in six months. I've also seen it take 2-3 years. It depends on various factors, including the location of the application (US vs overseas) and the home country of the applicant (applicants from countries with high rates of illegal immigration and/or visa fraud take longer to process). That being said, I've heard from other people that sponsoring their Mexican spouse took 3-6 months. I've heard from still others that sponsoring their Mexican spouse took 12-16 months. The longest app I ever heard of that was ultimately approved was a woman sponsoring a Jordanian spouse. Their application took three years to process because he had the same name as a known terrorist, apparently, and it took the US government a while to complete his background check.

The hard part is qualifying to immigrate here in the first place. The actual process is easy. I don't see any reason why we should relax our standards, either. If anything we should tighten them.


Very true, but the pro-criminals try to use that bit of propaganda to justify the actions of law breakers.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:48 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by h0tmess View Post
They aren't, because they are losing their jobs. Derp.
So the americans are drains on society while the illegals that get the jobs are contributing to society in your opinion?

Quote:
How about this: For people believe the crap that people deserve a spot in this country illegally "just because", how about they pay for their food and other needs when they hold their hand out? But let me guess: I'm wrong for not wanting to pay for them to come here ilegally?
I don't have a problem with welfare reform at all.

Quote:
Business' found harboring and hiring these people should be fined or even jailed.

A lot of countries have somewhat strict policies.. why should we just let everyone just waltz on in?
So if everyone else is jumping off the brooklyn bridge, you're going to do it too?

A better question is why should you violently interfere with people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
What if she wants to hire a ten year old? Ask someone to work fifteen hours a day with no breaks? Since when did our labor laws become something that must be bent and thrown out to meet the needs of foreign nationals and jerkish employers?
Please. This is a ridiculous argument that has nothing to do with illegal immigration. If anything, it's an argument to make legal immigration much more open as workers will be more likely to report employer abuse if they're legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Why aren't Americans allowed anything? We're not allowed to set own borders, cling to our own language or even defend our own jobs.
Wait, who is preventing you from clinging to your own language? I must have missed the new mandatory spanish law that was passed.

Defend your jobs? Nobody owns a job. That sort of entitlement attitude is a huge part of what gives the "american workers are lazy" impression.

[qutoe]Unskilled Mexicans are Carlos Slim's problem. They are not America's problem. Let him pay for them. [/quote]

lol what?

Quote:
We have enough unskilled people here. The last thing we need to do is import even more. A few million Americans cannot be held liable for the needs of all the world's poor people.
I don't think "a few million americans" should be "held liable for the needs of all the world's poor people."

It sounds like you think welfare programs in the US are too generous. That's an independent issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Do you actually not comprehend the difference between importing unskilled/uneducated workers, and employing our own? We don’t need to import poverty.
Go ahead and employ who you want to. Why should you get to make decisions for other employers?

Quote:
In other words, they have nothing to offer this country.
then why do people hire them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
I'm sick of hearing that immigrating here is difficult. If you qualify, it is not difficult at all. It can be lengthy with a lot of paperwork, but it's not actually hard.

...

The hard part is qualifying to immigrate here in the first place. The actual process is easy. I don't see any reason why we should relax our standards, either. If anything we should tighten them.
Nobody is arguing that the process once you qualify is too hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post


Very true, but the pro-criminals try to use that bit of propaganda to justify the actions of law breakers.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
I tend to ignore irrelevant analogies. So do most people.
How is it irrelevant?

Quote:
So we should throw away our hard won labor laws to help high school drop outs from Mexico and South America? Why?
No. I'm pointing out that your argument makes no sense.

A) if you're really worried about people making less than the minimum wage then increasing legal immigration is in your interests
B) almost all illegals are making more than minimum wage anyway so the entire point of your argument is moot.

Quote:
You really don't understand this issue, do you?

When you argue that you get to bid down labor, you're arguing bidding it down so low that someone can't survive without access to the welfare system. That welfare system is funded by the American taxpayer. Why should someone lose their jobs and then get taxed so that an unskilled person can come here? Worse, so that a greedy employer can make a profit because he's too cheap to employ locals?

No. They get access to it. Have a baby and the taxpayer foots the bill. Worse, feeds the family. Make him legal and all you do is increase the number of people feeding at the welfare system and not paying for it.

Illegals should be told to leave, not given permission to come here, bid down jobs and get food stamps.
well, actually they're not "given permission" to come here. So you've got what you want right now, what's the problem?

Quote:
So if I don't want to be forced to learn another language because you want to invite the world's people here against my will I'm lazy? Can I move to Mexico, refuse to learn Spanish and then run around lecturing locals about how lazy they are?
Who is forcing your to learn spanish???

Quote:
You're ill informed. Illegals often work off the books. The ones who work on the books pay little in taxes because they earn little. Legalize them and all you'll do is give them even more access to our tax dollars.
Most illegals work on the books. The IRS agrees with this. You'd rather keep the rest off the books? But then you want to complain about taxes?

If the outrage is just "poor people are getting my tax money" then you should be arguing that welfare programs should just be ended altogether.

But nobody seems to be arguing for that.

Why is that?

Quote:
I understand if you're a kid who doesn't pay taxes. You don't care because it only affects your parents. But those of us who are adults don't like paying more taxes. Particularly to subsidize the economic desires of Latino high school drop outs.
lol

A sure sign you've lost a debate is when you start resorting to this sort of baseless personal attack.

Quote:
The workforce will not improve if you argue that we should allow open borders. All you'll do is give more low skilled people an incentive to move here. Outside of polysci 101 that's a bad thing for most Americans.
lower costs is a good thing for most americans.

Quote:
It may be a global economy but most countries do their best to protect their workers. We need to make sure we're one of them. Our own low skilled laborers do not deserve to be thrown out of work merely so some overprivileged college kids can feel good about themselves.
Of course countries try to protect their workers. That's a politically popular thing to do. But it's counterproductive. What's popular is not necessarily what is best for the economy.


Quote:
Dear, I made over 80k last year. I am not concerned about employment. I am concerned about foolish children who want to raise my taxes so they can feel good about themselves.
I don't want to raise your taxes. I would love to see them lowered. But again, nice try with the baseless personal attacks.

Quote:
We do not owe low skilled non-English speakers the right to move here. We certainly don't owe them the right to get access to food stamps and other forms of welfare so they can take five dollar an hour jobs.
I agree, we don't owe them anything.


[more personal attacks deleted]

Last edited by Yac; 07-08-2011 at 03:08 AM.. Reason: 7 posts in a row merged
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: North Texas
23,599 posts, read 31,143,716 times
Reputation: 26656
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Nobody is arguing that the process once you qualify is too hard.
Uh actually that is a complaint that I hear quite frequently in various circles. It's a crock.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Nobody IN THIS FORUM is arguing that.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:25 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
How is it irrelevant?
It has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Quote:
No. I'm pointing out that your argument makes no sense.

A) if you're really worried about people making less than the minimum wage then increasing legal immigration is in your interests
B) almost all illegals are making more than minimum wage anyway so the entire point of your argument is moot.
You really don't understand this issue very well. The ONLY value for these people to most employers is because they work for very low wages. Legalizing them won't magically increase their skill level, educational background or understanding of English. Most illegals are high school drop outs from Latin American countries. They literally can't command higher wages because the market won't give it to them.

Quote:
well, actually they're not "given permission" to come here. So you've got what you want right now, what's the problem?
I'd like them to obey our laws and leave. So would most people.

Quote:
Who is forcing your to learn spanish???
My daughter has Spanish as a foreign language shoved down her throat right now. Illegal advocacy groups routinely argue in favor of demanding that Americans learn Spanish rather than demanding that illegals learn English.

Quote:
Most illegals work on the books. The IRS agrees with this. You'd rather keep the rest off the books? But then you want to complain about taxes?
I'd rather they all just left. Your point?

Quote:
If the outrage is just "poor people are getting my tax money" then you should be arguing that welfare programs should just be ended altogether.

But nobody seems to be arguing for that.

Why is that?
Because there's a huge difference between safety nets intended for citizens and being forced to subsidize a foreign national's poorly thought out immigration decision. We are not a welfare state for the rest of the world.

Quote:
lower costs is a good thing for most americans.
Not when it means higher prices in other areas such as medical costs and education.

Quote:
Of course countries try to protect their workers. That's a politically popular thing to do. But it's counterproductive. What's popular is not necessarily what is best for the economy.
Low skilled foreign nationals are not best for the economy. I'm sorry you think otherwise.

Quote:
I don't want to raise your taxes. I would love to see them lowered. But again, nice try with the baseless personal attacks.
Then stop advocating in favor of massive low skilled immigration. Import poverty and you will get increased taxes on the middle class.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:34 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Please. This is a ridiculous argument that has nothing to do with illegal immigration. If anything, it's an argument to make legal immigration much more open as workers will be more likely to report employer abuse if they're legal.
How are low skilled people who don't speak English going to report anything? Do you know ANYTHING at all about the current workforce? Workers everywhere are running scared.

We do not need more low skilled people who are only going to make the economic situation worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Wait, who is preventing you from clinging to your own language? I must have missed the new mandatory spanish law that was passed.
Illegal lobbyist constantly argue against laws that would demand English fluency from foreign nationals. They seek to undermine English and subsitute Spanish to make life even easier for their fellow Latinos.

Quote:
Defend your jobs? Nobody owns a job. That sort of entitlement attitude is a huge part of what gives the "american workers are lazy" impression.


Americans work longer hours and have fewer days off than any other workers in the industrialized world. No one owes a foreign national the right to come here and bid for our jobs. Greedy employers are simply beneath contempt and should not be honored in the legal sphere.

Quote:
lol what?
You really don't know anything about this issue, do you?

Carlos Slim is the world's richest man. He's a Mexican national. Let him take care of his underclass instead of shipping them here.

Quote:
I don't think "a few million americans" should be "held liable for the needs of all the world's poor people."

It sounds like you think welfare programs in the US are too generous. That's an independent issue.
Advocate open borders and you will do exactly that. Who do you think is going to come here? Someone comfortable? Or someone desperate? Couple that with access to social programs and you have an issue where we really are being told we need to subsidize the world's poor.

Please give this issue some thought before you post.

And no, I don't think American welfare programs are too generous. If anything they are too stingy. But that has nothing do with handing access to such program to the world's poor.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:40 PM
 
89 posts, read 39,356 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
My daughter has Spanish as a foreign language shoved down her throat right now. Illegal advocacy groups routinely argue in favor of demanding that Americans learn Spanish rather than demanding that illegals learn English.
She also has math, science, history, civics, and *gasp* English classes being "shoved down her throat." What's your point?
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