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Old 07-05-2011, 07:15 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
My community is over 50% Hispanic, and within 100 miles of the Mexican border. I would be truly surprised for anything but a fraction of a single percent of the total population to be illegal aliens. A sizable Hispanic population does not necessarily equate to higher quantities of illegal aliens, of any flavor.
Much of New Mexico is occupied by those of Spanish descent, not Mexican descent. I know, my husband has relatives there.

 
Old 07-05-2011, 08:46 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingVoltron View Post
No, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of individuals who worship at the Altar of the Rule of Law. Also EWI is misdemeanor offense and overstay is a civil offense. Rudy Giuliani took a lot of heat for pointing out these distinctions when he was interviewed by the king of mouthbreathers, Glenn Beck.
Oh, Rudi Giuliani says so, so it must be true. EWI is a Federal Misdemeanor and a Visa Overstay is as well. Neither are "civil offenses". They are prosecuted through the "immigration" courts, not through the "civil" courts. I thought you 2+2'ers knew everything?
 
Old 07-05-2011, 09:14 AM
 
951 posts, read 616,596 times
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The Congressional Research Service state that the INA says otherwise.

Quote:
"The INA [Immigration and Nationality Act] includes both criminal and civil components, providing both for criminal charges (e.g., alien smuggling, which is prosecuted in the federal courts) and for civil violations (e.g., lack of legal status, which may lead to removal through a separate administrative system in the Department of Justice). Being illegally present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA, and subsequent deportation and associated administrative processes are civil proceedings. For instance, a lawfully admitted nonimmigrant alien may become deportable if his visitor's visa expires or if his student status changes. Criminal violations of the INA, on the other hand, include felonies and misdemeanors and are prosecuted in federal district courts. These types of violations include the bringing in and harboring of certain undocumented aliens, the illegal entry of aliens, and the reentry of aliens previously excluded or deported."
 
Old 07-05-2011, 09:34 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingVoltron View Post
No, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of individuals who worship at the Altar of the Rule of Law. Also EWI is misdemeanor offense and overstay is a civil offense. Rudy Giuliani took a lot of heat for pointing out these distinctions when he was interviewed by the king of mouthbreathers, Glenn Beck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Oh, Rudi Giuliani says so, so it must be true. EWI is a Federal Misdemeanor and a Visa Overstay is as well. Neither are "civil offenses". They are prosecuted through the "immigration" courts, not through the "civil" courts. I thought you 2+2'ers knew everything?
I love how your retort to "EWI is a misdemeanor" is "EWI is a Federal Misdemeanor." Wonderful. But perhaps you were agreeing with FlyingVoltron and your only point is re: overstays.

Very well. First, it doesn't matter if you're prosecuted in civil court vs. some administrative court, the offense can still be civil. Second, visa overstays are often, if not usually, civil offenses.
 
Old 07-05-2011, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanna View Post
This morning, my sister and I decided to forego our usual hiking and walking locations, where we also do our photography. Instead, we stepped out of our "comfort zone" and went to the old section of a little town called Moorpark, which borders my hometown of Simi Valley. Now, growing up Simi kids didn't cross the line into Moorpark, and Moorpark kids rarely crossed over into Simi. Moorpark has been a mostly Hispanic population since at least the 1910's, and quite a few of them today are illegal immigrants.

We decided to wander down the main street and meander through the older neighborhoods, hoping to photographically capture at least a few older homes in a somewhat decent state of repair. We expected that most, if not all of the homes, would be in derelict, dirty states. We were also worried about how we might be viewed by the majority of Hispanics living in that area.

All I can say is that we were pleaqsantly surprised to see how well kept and cared for these historic old homes were. Yes, there were a few homes and yards that could have used some clean-up and TLC, but the majority of them were very nice. And the people? Not one gave us the unfriendly "hinky eye" that we are used to getting over in the San Fernando Valley. The truth be told, everyone was friendly and offered a "hello" and a smile. One man, who spoke very little English, saw us photographing. He was working in his garden with his young daughter, who was helping him. She was about 8 years old. His garden was beautiful and he had renovated the house to its original beauty. It wasn't a huge house, more like the old Craftsman style houses. We approached him and had a comical conversation as we tried to understand each other, with his young daughter helping out. We asked if we could photograph his beautiful home and he happily agreed. His daughter even opened the gate so we could get an unobstructed view. He walked us through his garden pointing out special plants and little touches he had added. His wife at first stayed near the porch and offered a shy smile our way every now and then. I suspect she may have been here illegally by her demeanor. He then told us about another, much older bungalow home and directed us to it. While looking for it a young Hispanic man approached and we described the house. He not only led us right to it, but he went up and asked the owner, in Spanish, if we could photograph it. They kindly allowed us to do so.

Soon after we headed back towards the main street to take photos of the old buildings there, almost all of which have been renovated to a high and accurate original standard. As we were coimg out of a small store we happened to come across the little girl and her mother. This time the mother spoke to us, giving a friendly "hello" and then indicated that she would like to see the photos on the cameras. We showed her the ones of her home and she gave us a big smile. We asked the little girl to explain that we were going to run them through a special program to make it look like a painting and next week we would bring her mother and father a printed copy. Her mother was very excited and pleased about this.

Honeslty, everyone we came into contact with was nice and friendly. A Hispanic guy who works at one of the places along the main road brought us each a free, ice cold Dr. Pepper because it was so hot out and we were carrying heavy backpacks. He also spoke very little English but we still managed to have a nice conversation for a good 15 minutes.

This puts me into a quandry. On the one hand, I believe that anyone wishing to immigrate here should do so through proper, legal channels. But, on the other hand, when I see what these people I met today have accomplished, and how they have rebuilt a small town which for many years was a run-down pit, I have to ask myself..."Would it honestly be fair to take away from them the homes they have bought, lovingly restored and tend to with pride and care?" That beautiful little girl, with her big smile and open friendliness, her parents with their warm welcome to two complete strangers, what about them and others like them? From what I saw today these people have been a huge benefit to this little town.

Then, my sister and I decided to drive through the neighborhood we moved to when we left Van Nuys for Simi Valley back in 1967. Both of us cried to see not only the state of our old house, but all the other houses in that area. I am saddened to say that the majority of people I saw sitting around on their porches were a lot of what I would call "white trash" people. Not one lawn was green and tended. No flowers anywhere, and trash in the yards. This was once a lovely neighborhood.

I still believe that illegal immigration needs to be stopped, but as for deportation of those already here, I think a case-by-case basis might be much fairier. I'm sure this won't be taken well by some on here, but after my experience today I have been able to see things a bit clearer and all it took was enough bravery on my part to step out of my comfort zone and immerse myself into what I had once feared. It was a humbling experience and my sister feels the same way.
Cyanna, how did you and your sister determine the immigration status of the residents? Or, did you “assume” they are illegal simply because they’re Hispanic? In any case, even if they are illegal aliens, a “nice” demeanor does not absolve one of guilt, or justify the violation of our laws. Nor should legal status be obtained on the basis of one’s ability to maintain a pristine lawn.

This is an interesting thread. The same people who would viciously vilify an anti-illegal for daring to assume a group are illegal solely on the basis of ethnicity or demeanor, are quick to extol you for doing exactly that. The difference being, you are attributing positive behavior to illegal aliens, so obviously, that’s okay. Had you taken pictures of a crime-infested, graffiti-filled barrio and made an identical claim, you would be called every name, but a child of God.

Funny, but not one pro-illegal has asked you to prove the authenticity of your photos, to cite the demographics, or to explain your method for determining the illegal status of the residents of this picturesque town. Call me cynical, but I believe there is much more to your “sudden” change of heart than meets the eye.

I have to run, but perhaps you will share your methodology to assist us in differentiating between Hispanic legal immigrants and Hispanic illegal aliens.
 
Old 07-05-2011, 10:34 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I love how your retort to "EWI is a misdemeanor" is "EWI is a Federal Misdemeanor." Wonderful. But perhaps you were agreeing with FlyingVoltron and your only point is re: overstays.

Very well. First, it doesn't matter if you're prosecuted in civil court vs. some administrative court, the offense can still be civil. Second, visa overstays are often, if not usually, civil offenses.
So your argument is only that the offense "can" be a "civil offense" and that a visa overstay charge is "usually" a "civil offense".

States and localities bear the primary responsibility for defining and prosecuting crimes. But beyond enforcing the laws or ordinances of their state or locality, state and local officials may also have the authority to enforce some federal laws, especially criminal laws. Immigration law provides for both criminal punishments (e.g., for alien smuggling, which is prosecuted in the courts) and civil violations (e.g., lack of legal status, which may lead to removal through a separate administrative system). States and localities have traditionally only been permitted to directly enforce certain criminal provisions that fall under their jurisdictions, whereas the enforcement of the civil provisions has been viewed as a federal responsibility. {It is these civil violations that are considered a Misdemeanor while the criminal punishment is considered a Felony.} CRS Report: Enforcing Immigration Law: The Role of State and Local Law Enforcement, 2009

Let's go a step further, most EWI's aren't even prosecuted and most visa overstays are allowed to appeal through the BIA prior to removal. The facts of the matter are that they can be charged with criminal offenses, most often, they are not, they are simply deported.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 07-05-2011 at 10:45 AM..
 
Old 07-05-2011, 10:42 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Cyanna, how did you and your sister determine the immigration status of the residents? Or, did you “assume” they are illegal simply because they’re Hispanic? In any case, even if they are illegal aliens, a “nice” demeanor does not absolve one of guilt, or justify the violation of our laws. Nor should legal status be obtained on the basis of one’s ability to maintain a pristine lawn.

This is an interesting thread. The same people who would viciously vilify an anti-illegal for daring to assume a group are illegal solely on the basis of ethnicity or demeanor, are quick to extol you for doing exactly that. The difference being, you are attributing positive behavior to illegal aliens, so obviously, that’s okay. Had you taken pictures of a crime-infested, graffiti-filled barrio and made an identical claim, you would be called every name, but a child of God.

Funny, but not one pro-illegal has asked you to prove the authenticity of your photos, to cite the demographics, or to explain your method for determining the illegal status of the residents of this picturesque town. Call me cynical, but I believe there is much more to your “sudden” change of heart than meets the eye.

I have to run, but perhaps you will share your methodology to assist us in differentiating between Hispanic legal immigrants and Hispanic illegal aliens.
I am suspect also to this sudden change of heart. If memory serves me right Cyanna said she was raped by an illegal alien. Not that it is reason to hate all illegal aliens or to claim that they are all rapers but it does make me say hmm. I agree, how does one determine if one is legal or illegal just by their looks?
 
Old 07-05-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Much of New Mexico is occupied by those of Spanish descent, not Mexican descent. I know, my husband has relatives there.
So why does a high percentage of Hispanics in New Mexico not equate to as many illegal aliens per capita in California, further away from the border?...
 
Old 07-05-2011, 11:08 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
So why does a high percentage of Hispanics in New Mexico not equate to as many illegal aliens per capita in California, further away from the border?...
You're the one that claimed that you would be surprised if there were more than a small faction of illegal aliens in New Mexico even with 50% being Hispanics.
 
Old 07-05-2011, 11:12 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
So your argument is only that the offense "can" be a "civil offense" and that a visa overstay charge is "usually" a "civil offense".

States and localities bear the primary responsibility for defining and prosecuting crimes. But beyond enforcing the laws or ordinances of their state or locality, state and local officials may also have the authority to enforce some federal laws, especially criminal laws. Immigration law provides for both criminal punishments (e.g., for alien smuggling, which is prosecuted in the courts) and civil violations (e.g., lack of legal status, which may lead to removal through a separate administrative system). States and localities have traditionally only been permitted to directly enforce certain criminal provisions that fall under their jurisdictions, whereas the enforcement of the civil provisions has been viewed as a federal responsibility. {It is these civil violations that are considered a Misdemeanor while the criminal punishment is considered a Felony.} CRS Report: Enforcing Immigration Law: The Role of State and Local Law Enforcement, 2009

Let's go a step further, most EWI's aren't even prosecuted and most visa overstays are allowed to appeal through the BIA prior to removal. The facts of the matter are that they can be charged with criminal offenses, most often, they are not, they are simply deported.
Very cool that you're reading legal stuff, maybe you should go to law school to correct the various misunderstandings that you have such that next time you don't point out civil vs. immigration courts as if it matters in this context. If you did not disagree with the post you were retorting, then you should probably clarify.

You said overstays were "not civil offenses." Of course, they can be. I pointed that out. You don't need to go on a rant about discretion - you know that I know the relevant facts about discretion. If you want me to know that you know a bunch about discretion in prosecution and enforcement, then go ahead and post a full unneeded paragraph every time I clarify a post of yours.
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