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Old 07-06-2011, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
OK? I want to hire a very non-criminal team of workers from Mexico to join my company. None of them, however, for various reasons, are able to get permission to legally enter the U.S.

Now, you may believe it's not immoral for the government to prevent this transaction. But their entry into the United States is being blocked, and it's harming me. Where is the injustice being prevented there, exactly?

And lol, at issue is NOT the right of a sovereign nation to dictate immigration policies. Has one person disputed that the government CAN implement these laws?
Your inability to obtain work visas for a crew from Mexico does not qualify as immoral. If the work crew does not meet the requirements, then the government is well within it right to deny visas. You, as a business owner, must then try Plan B.

You must be kidding. While pro-illegals do not dispute the legality of our immigration policies, you certainly do consider them inhumane and immoral.

Again, what are the specific immoral aspects of our immigration laws? Please provide actual examples.

 
Old 07-06-2011, 10:40 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Your inability to obtain work visas for a crew from Mexico does not qualify as immoral. If the work crew does not meet the requirements, then the government is well within it right to deny visas. You, as a business owner, must then try Plan B.

You must be kidding. While pro-illegals do not dispute the legality of our immigration policies, you certainly do consider them inhumane and immoral.

Again, what are the specific immoral aspects of our immigration laws? Please provide actual examples.
I'm not sure what you're even arguing. Sorry if this "doesn't qualify as immoral" by standards you are making up. I don't care if the government is "within its right." I don't believe in rights that do not emanate from government, so whether it's within its rights is completely irrelevant to me.

I just provided you with an example. I'm asking you why those workers, in ALL situations, should not allowed to work with me and, for example, acquire property in my state.

I mean, great, you have just said "that's not immoral." If I have a car, and you want to buy it, the government is "within its rights" to simply step in and say no, you can't buy it. Did something immoral just happen?
 
Old 07-06-2011, 10:42 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
The weird part about your response is that you have done EXACTLY what you said you were not doing - equating the law with morality. "Well that's not immoral, the government has a right to do that" is an argument that bases morality on legality.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I'm not sure what you're even arguing. Sorry if this "doesn't qualify as immoral" by standards you are making up. I don't care if the government is "within its right." I don't believe in rights that do not emanate from government, so whether it's within its rights is completely irrelevant to me.

I just provided you with an example. I'm asking you why those workers, in ALL situations, should not allowed to work with me and, for example, acquire property in my state.

I mean, great, you have just said "that's not immoral." If I have a car, and you want to buy it, the government is "within its rights" to simply step in and say no, you can't buy it. Did something immoral just happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
The weird part about your response is that you have done EXACTLY what you said you were not doing - equating the law with morality. "Well that's not immoral, the government has a right to do that" is an argument that bases morality on legality.
I see you are still unable to provide concrete “real” life examples of the immorality of our immigration laws. Stop with the hypothetical workforce, and other irrelevant analogies. Either post specific sections of our immigration laws and the resultant immorality, or you are doing nothing but grasping at straws.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 11:17 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I see you are still unable to provide concrete “real” life examples of the immorality of our immigration laws. Stop with the hypothetical workforce, and other irrelevant analogies. Either post specific sections of our immigration laws and the resultant immorality, or you are doing nothing but grasping at straws.
Hypothetical lol, that is literally happening right now to huge numbers of people and employers. You want me to go find one? Cool. My Dad runs a construction company. Cheap labor from Mexico is harder to come by than it would be with looser immigration laws.

Please explain how the government preventing that transaction is either beneficial or moral.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Hypothetical lol, that is literally happening right now to huge numbers of people and employers. You want me to go find one? Cool. My Dad runs a construction company. Cheap labor from Mexico is harder to come by than it would be with looser immigration laws.

Please explain how the government preventing that transaction is either beneficial or moral.
Therein lies the problem. Your dad has a preference for “cheap” labor from Mexico. He, like so many unscrupulous employers, is underbidding and bankrupting honest contractors. And, please don’t tell me there are no qualified U.S. workers. I know better.

No, you explain how it is immoral or detrimental for U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers, rather than outsourcing to foreign countries, or in-sourcing cheap foreign labor.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 11:36 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Therein lies the problem. Your dad has a preference for “cheap” labor from Mexico. He, like so many unscrupulous employers, is underbidding and bankrupting honest contractors. And, please don’t tell me there are no qualified U.S. workers. I know better.

No, you explain how it is immoral or detrimental for U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers, rather than outsourcing to foreign countries, or in-sourcing cheap foreign labor.
It's not. The whole point is that the option is superior. I support the ability of employers to choose whom they would like to employ.

lol underbidding and bankrupting "honest" contractors, i.e. contractors who are not successfully competitive and thus choose more expensive labor? My example was of an inefficient outcome - that my Dad can't hire who he chooses. So no, he's not outbidding them because of his preference for cheaper labor, even though he shares that preference with just about every employer in the world.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
It's not. The whole point is that the option is superior. I support the ability of employers to choose whom they would like to employ.

lol underbidding and bankrupting "honest" contractors, i.e. contractors who are not successfully competitive and thus choose more expensive labor? My example was of an inefficient outcome - that my Dad can't hire who he chooses. So no, he's not outbidding them because of his preference for cheaper labor, even though he shares that preference with just about every employer in the world.
You have proven our point. Those who vehemently advocate on behalf of illegal aliens either profit from them, have illegal family or friends, or are themselves illegal. In other words, they have a vested interest in illegal immigration, and don’t give a damn about this country or the deleterious impact of massive, unabated illegal immigration. You don’t care about illegal aliens either. All of your benevolence, and talk about morality was nothing but a load of crap. Your daddy can’t make the money he wants, so we must change our “immoral” immigration laws. It’s pure greed.

Sorry, but if your dad and others cannot afford to pay decent wages, and the required taxes and insurance, they should not be in business. As for the honest contractors, why should they be forced to compete against those who hire ‘slave’ labor? And, yes, many have gone bankrupt for refusing to break the law by employing cheap, illegal labor. Some people still have integrity.
 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:02 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You have proven our point. Those who vehemently advocate on behalf of illegal aliens either profit from them, have illegal family or friends, or are themselves illegal.
Obviously this is untrue (lol categorization). And I don't benefit from illegal immigrants at all. I, like most Americans, would benefit from relaxed immigration laws, but that's about it. I am not in a field conducive to benefiting directly from cheaper labor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, they have a vested interest in illegal immigration, and don’t give a damn about this country or the deleterious impact of massive, unabated illegal immigration. You don’t care about illegal aliens either. All of your benevolence, and talk about morality was nothing but a load of crap. Your daddy can’t make the money he wants, so we must change our “immoral” immigration laws. It’s pure greed.
So there we were, arguing over the morality of immigration laws, when all of a sudden you assumed your conclusion, asserted that you were right and the only reason to disagree with you would be for selfish reasons, and then we were no longer arguing over the morality of immigration laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sorry, but if your dad and others cannot afford to pay decent wages, and the required taxes and insurance, they should not be in business. As for the honest contractors, why should they be forced to compete against those who hire ‘slave’ labor? And, yes, many have gone bankrupt for refusing to break the law by employing cheap, illegal labor. Some people still have integrity.
Just goes to prove my point - the only people who oppose relaxed immigration laws are incompetent businessmen and laborers unable to compete (see what I did there?!)
 
Old 07-06-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Obviously this is untrue (lol categorization). And I don't benefit from illegal immigrants at all. I, like most Americans, would benefit from relaxed immigration laws, but that's about it. I am not in a field conducive to benefiting directly from cheaper labor.



So there we were, arguing over the morality of immigration laws, when all of a sudden you assumed your conclusion, asserted that you were right and the only reason to disagree with you would be for selfish reasons, and then we were no longer arguing over the morality of immigration laws



Just goes to prove my point - the only people who oppose relaxed immigration laws are incompetent businessmen and laborers unable to compete (see what I did there?!)
Sorry, but the cat is out of the bag. You have exposed your true agenda, and hence, have lost all credibility. You can no longer feign compassion for the poor, misunderstood illegals. Your dad is an illegal alien profiteer, and that alone is the impetus for your “support” of illegal aliens.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I not an incompetent businesswoman, or a laborer threatened by illegal aliens. I am a very well-established professional who simply cares about this country. Have a good day.
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