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Old 07-20-2011, 07:44 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima View Post
I largely agree with all of these comments, however, we need to recognize that the DREAM Act was rejected by a narrow margin in a parliamentary maneuver. Although it is unlikely that the GOP-controlled House will pass the DREAM Act, if the tide turns and Pelosi is back in charge, this may be her first order of business. In other words, we may not be able to defeat it next time. If so, wouldn't it make sense to strengthen tha act and make it more difficult to qualify while prohibiting any sponsorship of other relatives by the DREAMERS?
I definitely agree with the last sentence.

In fact the whole family chain migration needs to end. It's extremely easy for anyone with some kind of relative living here to be sponsored while much worthier types cannot fine an employer for a work visa.

Family sponsorship should be limited to spouse and minor children and only if the sponsor actually picks up the tab for his or her immigrants. That means health insurance plan, housing costs, food and for as long as their immigrant remains in this country or is able to work for a living.

Anchor babies also should not be able to bring in parents, grandparents, all the aunts and uncles and so on.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:00 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I definitely agree with the last sentence.

In fact the whole family chain migration needs to end. It's extremely easy for anyone with some kind of relative living here to be sponsored while much worthier types cannot fine an employer for a work visa.

Family sponsorship should be limited to spouse and minor children and only if the sponsor actually picks up the tab for his or her immigrants. That means health insurance plan, housing costs, food and for as long as their immigrant remains in this country or is able to work for a living.

Anchor babies also should not be able to bring in parents, grandparents, all the aunts and uncles and so on.
Totally agree with this plan. You can bet that the pro-illegals would object to the Dreamies parents not being able to remain here though. They say that not passing the Dream Act is punishing kids brought here against their will illegally but what would they say to "punishing" their parents for being the ones who came here illegally by deporting them? I can just hear their cries about that right now. They want it both ways.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:28 AM
 
15,924 posts, read 16,853,526 times
Reputation: 7619
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima View Post
if the tide turns and Pelosi is back in charge, this may be her first order of business. In other words, we may not be able to defeat it next time.
Now here is a real DREAM act....

Pelosi back in charge
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I have some issues/comments/ideas about this

As far as the DREAM act goes it isn't amnesty. Amnesty is something for nothing while this is a quid pro quo.
How is the DREAM Act NOT amnesty? Have you actually read the bill? Adult illegal aliens will be legalized if they entered this country prior to the age of 16, and have a high school diploma, or received a GED. Not only that, but those currently enrolled in primary or secondary schools would also be legalized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
While I agree in principle, it is very difficult for a non resident of a state to achieve a 4 year degree while paying out of state tuition ( which is what most illegal aliens pay except for a few states). which equals to an almost impossible amount to pay for a legal non resident who can receive financial aid ( which illegal aliens can't).
Why is it impossible? U.S. citizens have been doing it for years. Why should illegals be the exception? Do you think itís fair to require LEGAL foreign students to pay higher tuition rates than those here illegally? I donít.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
As far as I know the requirements is to complete a 2 year degree or 2 years of military service to have the option not just a GED or diploma.
What you are failing to understand is the fact that they will be summarily legalized. The high school diploma or GED is simply the requirement for them to qualify for a path to citizenship. Our government canít keep track of simple tourist visas. Do you actually believe this program will be adequately monitored to ensure compliance? So, we will legalize millions of illegals on the ďhonor systemĒ in hopes that they will "eventually" complete a 2-year degree, which is essentially as valuable as a high school diploma. How will this country benefit? And, how many of the millions legalized will even fulfill their obligation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I guess this seems weird. In order to gain citizenship you must deport your parents who you won't be able to see again for at least 10 years.
The parents chose to break our laws. Do you believe they should be rewarded? Sorry, but illegal behavior has consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
Why? At age 7 a person is going to gain the will to tell their parents that they are going to leave them and go back to X country without them? 16 seems about the age of independence from parents and the ability to live on one's own which is what I imagine would be the dividing line between someone who was brought where and didn't know any different and someone who make an equal choice to be an illegal or not. Denied all tax funded benefits seems fair for Y amount of years.
We have to have a starting point. Is it fair for a 16-year-old who is two months older than a 15-year-old to be disqualified? Perhaps not. But, thatís the way it is.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:30 AM
 
148 posts, read 66,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How is the DREAM Act NOT amnesty? Have you actually read the bill? Adult illegal aliens will be legalized if they entered this country prior to the age of 16, and have a high school diploma, or received a GED. Not only that, but those currently enrolled in primary or secondary schools would also be legalized.
As far as I know that isn't the case. I would suggest going to Basic Information about the DREAM Act Legislation | DREAM Act Portal as it lists the requirements to complete the DREAM ACT. You have only listed the requirements to be eligible to complete the DREAM act. More generally amnesty is defined as a something for nothing i.e. though clemency or compassion general prohibitions or punishments are waived. A quid pro quo means that if you do X,Y,Z, we waive or grant A,B,C. Amnesty isn't defined as anything you don't like.



Quote:
Why is it impossible? U.S. citizens have been doing it for years. Why should illegals be the exception? Do you think it’s fair to require LEGAL foreign students to pay higher tuition rates than those here illegally? I don’t.
No they haven't. Please show me an American citizen who has completed a 4 year degree without financial aid or scholarships at a credible state university and I will show a small infantile fraction of the population. Practically all financial aid and the majority of state sponsored scholorships are denied to illegal aliens who must pay out of state tuition which is astronomical or pay total in state tuition which is very hard to do. The current trend is for colleges to raise tuition while raising financial aid rates as to appear more prestigious because of higher tuition costs but be more accessible to students though financial aid, an option not allowed to illegal immigrants except for a few states.

As for military service you would be hard pressed to find someone who says that offering military service in any amount of years isn't enough to qualify someone for citizenship status. I can't think of a harder sacrifice than to have the potential to be blown up or shot to enjoy America's freedoms.


Quote:
What you are failing to understand is the fact that they will be summarily legalized. The high school diploma or GED is simply the requirement for them to qualify for a path to citizenship. Our government can’t keep track of simple tourist visas. Do you actually believe this program will be adequately monitored to ensure compliance?
Yes, in as so far that who wants to be a citizen will complete the program.


Quote:
So, we will legalize millions of illegals on the “honor system” in hopes that they will "eventually" complete a 2-year degree, which is essentially as valuable as a high school diploma. How will this country benefit? And, how many of the millions legalized will even fulfill their obligation?
No, no honor system. College transcripts are easy to request and to verify and citizenship if you believe, isn't handed out willy nilly. How the country benefits is really something beyond yours or my comprehension. I do know that they will be completing a degree that over half of Americans do not complete so putting ones self above the 50% percentile in terms of education would qualify, at least in my mind, as benefiting the country in some way. More to the point is that you have no idea what benefits the country in any concrete terms. Does a PhD student in philosophy? in engineering? a college drop out that founds Microsoft, or Google? I think asking to be above the 50th percentile is a fair enough measure of one's worth to the country ( as if there is some measure of how much we have to be worth to the country)



Quote:
The parents chose to break our laws. Do you believe they should be rewarded? Sorry, but illegal behavior has consequences.
I'm not sure how the parents are being rewarded, when the DREAM act is aimed towards children that were brought here at a young age. Why not any drug dealers the person might know? tax evaders? jay walkers? all have broken the law. The arbitrariness of your stipident reveals more about your personal desires than any objective reasoning behind your objections.



Quote:
We have to have a starting point. Is it fair for a 16-year-old who is two months older than a 15-year-old to be disqualified? Perhaps not. But, that’s the way it is.
Yes but your desire for a "starting point" has little or no merit other than " what about the 15 year olds?" While the sliding scale of accountability may come into play between 15 year olds and 16 year olds, you have failed ask why 6 year olds? While we can't pin down an exact date a general idea of accountability and self independence is the criterion.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:27 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
No they haven't. Please show me an American citizen who has completed a 4 year degree without financial aid or scholarships at a credible state university and I will show a small infantile fraction of the population. Practically all financial aid and the majority of state sponsored scholorships are denied to illegal aliens who must pay out of state tuition which is astronomical or pay total in state tuition which is very hard to do.
I can show you plenty of Americans who have not received financial aid or scholarships to attend state universities. AND there will be millions more Americans who will be denied financial aid and scholarships if the Dream Act passes and the illegals run to the front of the financial aid lines to claim their Grand Prize.

No way should illegals be given free college educations over American citizens. No way should they be at the front of the financial aid lines because their parents sent $800 in remittance money back ever month or have no proof of income because they worked for cash under the table. Illegals would obviously "qualify" over American students because by having undocumented parents, they have no documented family income.

That's what the Dream Act is all about -- it's another money grab by people who have no business being in this country.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,774,015 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by KickAssArmyChick View Post
Wah wah wah.

Sick of hearing about this crap.

Deport them!!! Deport them all! The parents and their illegal offspring. My dad and relatives went through so much crap to come and live here LEGALLY. I am sick of people who think they are entitled to anything.
I have got to rep. that. Great post.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:43 AM
 
20 posts, read 9,272 times
Reputation: 14
[quote=malamute;20125209]I can show you plenty of Americans who have not received financial aid or scholarships to attend state universities. [quote] plenty of them? I know that at least 50% of Americans receive financial aid to attend college and I am willing to bet the 50% that don't have historic ties to wealth or come from upper middle class families which is impossible to have for an illegal alien. That makes it rather pointless to demand that no financial aid or scholarships be taken because that makes it an impossible task to complete.


Quote:
AND there will be millions more Americans who will be denied financial aid and scholarships if the Dream Act passes and the illegals run to the front of the financial aid lines to claim their Grand Prize.
? Has anyone you have known been turned down from financial aid because they said they had had too many?

Quote:
No way should illegals be given free college educations over American citizens.
I agree. It isn't free, for Americans or illegal immigrants

Quote:
No way should they be at the front of the financial aid lines because their parents sent $800 in remittance money back ever month or have no proof of income because they worked for cash under the table. Illegals would obviously "qualify" over American students because by having undocumented parents, they have no documented family income.
Of course this is completely false. There isn't even a "line" for financial aid, nor are illegals currently or would that be given financial aid "in front" of American citizens. Would you please stop making things up?

Quote:
That's what the Dream Act is all about -- it's another money grab by people who have no business being in this country.
Of course this is something you had already determined without even knowing a thing about financial aid, scholarships, or education. Good luck with that.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
As far as I know that isn't the case. I would suggest going to Basic Information about the DREAM Act Legislation | DREAM Act Portal as it lists the requirements to complete the DREAM ACT. You have only listed the requirements to be eligible to complete the DREAM act. More generally amnesty is defined as a something for nothing i.e. though clemency or compassion general prohibitions or punishments are waived. A quid pro quo means that if you do X,Y,Z, we waive or grant A,B,C. Amnesty isn't defined as anything you don't like.





No they haven't. Please show me an American citizen who has completed a 4 year degree without financial aid or scholarships at a credible state university and I will show a small infantile fraction of the population. Practically all financial aid and the majority of state sponsored scholorships are denied to illegal aliens who must pay out of state tuition which is astronomical or pay total in state tuition which is very hard to do. The current trend is for colleges to raise tuition while raising financial aid rates as to appear more prestigious because of higher tuition costs but be more accessible to students though financial aid, an option not allowed to illegal immigrants except for a few states.

As for military service you would be hard pressed to find someone who says that offering military service in any amount of years isn't enough to qualify someone for citizenship status. I can't think of a harder sacrifice than to have the potential to be blown up or shot to enjoy America's freedoms.




Yes, in as so far that who wants to be a citizen will complete the program.




No, no honor system. College transcripts are easy to request and to verify and citizenship if you believe, isn't handed out willy nilly. How the country benefits is really something beyond yours or my comprehension. I do know that they will be completing a degree that over half of Americans do not complete so putting ones self above the 50% percentile in terms of education would qualify, at least in my mind, as benefiting the country in some way. More to the point is that you have no idea what benefits the country in any concrete terms. Does a PhD student in philosophy? in engineering? a college drop out that founds Microsoft, or Google? I think asking to be above the 50th percentile is a fair enough measure of one's worth to the country ( as if there is some measure of how much we have to be worth to the country)





I'm not sure how the parents are being rewarded, when the DREAM act is aimed towards children that were brought here at a young age. Why not any drug dealers the person might know? tax evaders? jay walkers? all have broken the law. The arbitrariness of your stipident reveals more about your personal desires than any objective reasoning behind your objections.



Yes but your desire for a "starting point" has little or no merit other than " what about the 15 year olds?" While the sliding scale of accountability may come into play between 15 year olds and 16 year olds, you have failed ask why 6 year olds? While we can't pin down an exact date a general idea of accountability and self independence is the criterion.
I donít need to read threads from Dreamland. I have read the actual bill. And, as previously stated, they will be legalized PRIOR to satisfying the requirements. Furthermore, amnesty is a pardon, reprieve, absolution for violating our laws, which is precisely what the DREAM Act entails.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: In this horrid OBOMINATION
321 posts, read 305,182 times
Reputation: 154
Our country is busto but yeah let's give financial aid to criminals
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