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Old 07-22-2011, 06:50 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,975 times
Reputation: 17

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquabluesrq View Post
Our country is busto but yeah let's give financial aid to criminals
You do realize that giving someone an education is a net benefit for society, right? It's kind of why society had decided that everyone gets to go to school through age 18 for free, and that there are lots of subsidies for people later.

And educated population benefits everyone in that society, and a robustly growing economy is an excellent way to get out of debt.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:27 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
You do realize that giving someone an education is a net benefit for society, right? It's kind of why society had decided that everyone gets to go to school through age 18 for free, and that there are lots of subsidies for people later.

And educated population benefits everyone in that society, and a robustly growing economy is an excellent way to get out of debt.
There's no evidence of that.

For one we allow pretty much unlimited illegal immigration because according to the pro-illegals, it's the uneducated we need to bring into this country to work for dirt wages.

It makes no sense to demand we keep the borders wide open for the uneducated to pour in, and then we have to come up with some huge money to educate them because we changed our mind about needing them for that dirt cheap labor they can do.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:04 PM
 
20 posts, read 9,268 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I don’t need to read threads from Dreamland. I have read the actual bill. And, as previously stated, they will be legalized PRIOR to satisfying the requirements.
They will not be legalized before satisfying the requirements they will be given a "Conditional Permanent Residency" which means they are have 6 years to receive at least 2 years of education enrolled in a 4 year degree plan or complete 2 years of military service. Only then do they qualify for permanent resident status and after a wait then apply for citizenship status. In other words, they are not given citizenship before completing their conditions and they aren't even granted citizenship after completing the requirements.

Quote:
Furthermore, amnesty is a pardon, reprieve, absolution for violating our laws, which is precisely what the DREAM Act entails.
This isn't a useful definition because, based on that definition anything is amnesty. A reduced sentence, defensive driving, community service, even a prison sentence is a "pardon" i.e. paying one's dues in order to be absolved of violating a law.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:10 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
There's no evidence of that.

For one we allow pretty much unlimited illegal immigration because according to the pro-illegals, it's the uneducated we need to bring into this country to work for dirt wages.

It makes no sense to demand we keep the borders wide open for the uneducated to pour in, and then we have to come up with some huge money to educate them because we changed our mind about needing them for that dirt cheap labor they can do.
We don't need them remaining here to compete with Americans for what few jobs there are either. It is ridiculous in the first place that they are even in our schools and that we are paying to educate them when they can get an education in their own countries.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:02 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,975 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
There's no evidence of that.
lol, you could not be more wrong. Education level directly correlated with income. Income levels are directly correlated with health, longevity, infant mortality, happiness (to a point), social justice, advanced levels of technology, etc. Income levels are inversely correlated to crime rates.

But don't take my word for it (just one example, but the studies on this are myriad): SpringerLink - Social Indicators Research, Volume 36, Number 3
Quote:
Across 101 nations, 32 indices were analyzed that reflect a representative sample of universal human values (e.g., happiness, social order, and social justice). Wealth correlated significantly with 26 of the 32 indices, indicating a higher Quality of Life in wealthier nations. Only suicide and CO2 emissions were worse in wealthier societies. Basic physical needs were met early in economic development, whereas advanced scientific work occurred only when basic physical needs were fulfilled for almost all people in the society.
It would be next to impossible to find someone who doesn't think that high rates of health and medical care, longevity, justice, technological advancement, and happiness and low levels of crime are not a net benefit to a society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
For one we allow pretty much unlimited illegal immigration...
No, we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
because according to the pro-illegals, it's the uneducated we need to bring into this country to work for dirt wages.
No, that's not the case made by people like myself. I just think it's the humane, empathic thing to do. You know, to give a fellow human the opportunities that I've had, which I didn't have to earn at all. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I've got the right to tell other people where they're allowed to work, where they're allowed to live, or where they're allowed to live their life - just as I wouldn't want someone else to tell me where to do all that stuff. I realize that the only difference between myself and them is that I happened to be lucky enough to exit my mother's womb while she resided between two imaginary lines on a map. That's more of my justification for my position on the issue, not because I think "we need to bring [illegals] into this country to work for dirt wages."

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It makes no sense to demand we keep the borders wide open for the uneducated to pour in, and then we have to come up with some huge money to educate them because we changed our mind about needing them for that dirt cheap labor they can do.
This is irrelevant. The DREAM Act, which is being discussed here, would only apply to a very narrow subset of those people. It only pertains to illegal students brought here by their parents while they were minors, who are of "good moral character" , and have lived in the US for at least 5 consecutive years prior to the date the bill is enacted. So instead of having to come up with money to educate some never-ending stream of immigrants, it's a relatively small group of people WHO ALREADY LIVE IN THE US. And so, as I said before, educating people who live in the country is a good investment for any government.

But, by all means, continue to set up strawmen that you can easily then knock down.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:21 PM
 
Location: In this horrid OBOMINATION
321 posts, read 305,132 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
You do realize that giving someone an education is a net benefit for society, right? It's kind of why society had decided that everyone gets to go to school through age 18 for free, and that there are lots of subsidies for people later.

And educated population benefits everyone in that society, and a robustly growing economy is an excellent way to get out of debt.
Where in The Constitution does it say The United States of America has to provide financial aid in the form of free grants to illegal aliens on the back of American Citizens Tax Dollars?

I would be ok with giving them low interest stafford type loans. Free money or in state tuition def not
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:55 AM
 
20 posts, read 9,268 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquabluesrq View Post
Where in The Constitution does it say The United States of America has to provide financial aid in the form of free grants to illegal aliens on the back of American Citizens Tax Dollars?

I would be ok with giving them low interest stafford type loans. Free money or in state tuition def not
You do know they have to pay loans back, and scholarships are earned though merit? You know students aren't just handed scholarships right?
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:57 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
lol, you could not be more wrong. Education level directly correlated with income. Income levels are directly correlated with health, longevity, infant mortality, happiness (to a point), social justice, advanced levels of technology, etc. Income levels are inversely correlated to crime rates.
Actually you couldn't be more wrong.

The USA is not about making Americans pay for the biggest flop house of the world where any one without job skills and education to make it back home can come and get a free ride paid by American taxpayers.

These Dream Act types, if they are half-way intelligent and hard working can easily join the middle class of their own countries -- which contrary to the lies being told have university systems. Mexico has some rather fine universities, it's a complete and total lie that there is no education to be had in their own countries. Not only that, their own government provides funds that make these universities very affordable to it's citizens.

There is absolutely no excuse to deny an American citizen this financial aid and give it to illegals coming here instead.

And we would be better off if neighboring countries were more stable, had it's citizens building it into a more middle class society, but the middle class of Mexico is growing while ours is not.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:56 AM
 
Location: In this horrid OBOMINATION
321 posts, read 305,132 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakinupallnight View Post
You do know they have to pay loans back, and scholarships are earned though merit? You know students aren't just handed scholarships right?
Illegals should not get grants- they could apply for student loans that they would have to pay back with interest. Why should they get scholarships that could be taken away from a deserving American student?
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:58 AM
 
Location: In this horrid OBOMINATION
321 posts, read 305,132 times
Reputation: 154
Under no circumstance should an illegal alien receive any financial benefit before an American- ever
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