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Old 07-09-2011, 07:03 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
You speak of illegals creating competion in the US workforce without acknowledging that the playing field is not level. Illegals can work for less because they don't pay taxes. If they do pay taxes it's because they have stolen someone's identity.
I'd be shocked if more than a tiny percentage of illegals made enough money to qualify to pay federal income taxes. Most taxes are not avoidable, of course, so this doesn't actually hold water.

However you're right that the lack of even playing field (which actually works both ways, since employers are risking being caught and thus incurring added costs when they employ illegal immigrants) can distort the market. Legalization of the workers would fix that.

 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:04 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,305 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
"I am out-competing American workers and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

Someone studying to be a lawyer should realize that there are labor laws in this country that do not put this "competion" that you speak of on a level playing field. It is often easy to win when you don't play by the rules.

But I would also think that if you are studying to be a lawyer you would realize that it probably isn't in your best interest to broadcast this very fact to the people you've been cheating. JMO
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:04 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
Reputation: 111
If you spell competition like that another time I officially get to make fun of it forever.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:10 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,305 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I'd be shocked if more than a tiny percentage of illegals made enough money to qualify to pay federal income taxes. Most taxes are not avoidable, of course, so this doesn't actually hold water.

However you're right that the lack of even playing field (which actually works both ways, since employers are risking being caught and thus incurring added costs when they employ illegal immigrants) can distort the market. Legalization of the workers would fix that.

Legalization of the workers would also throw off the balance for the citizens of this country. That is why we have a LEGAL immigration system.

We don't need to import poverty. I'm glad that you acknowledge that illegals are not paying into the system that they so freely abuse.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:12 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,305 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
If you spell competition like that another time I officially get to make fun of it forever.

Well, I see you have no valid argument, LMAO.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:14 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Legalization of the workers would also throw off the balance for the citizens of this country. That is why we have a LEGAL immigration system.

We don't need to import poverty. I'm glad that you acknowledge that illegals are not paying into the system that they so freely abuse.
I just said that most of them absolutely are.

We're not, of course, importing poverty. You almost had me believing that you understood how markets worked, but now you're saying that the "balance" would be thrown off for citizens. What balance is that, exactly? The one artificially created by the government?
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:19 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I just said that most of them absolutely are.

We're not, of course, importing poverty. You almost had me believing that you understood how markets worked, but now you're saying that the "balance" would be thrown off for citizens. What balance is that, exactly? The one artificially created by the government?

Yes, the government that is supposed to protect it's own citizens.

If they are not making enough to pay income taxes then yes, we are importing people that take more than they give. It doesn't enhance the tax base.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:27 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,638 times
Reputation: 24
[quote=Isitmeorarethingsnuts?;19947492]Or how about

Quote:
I am illegal because I am too lazy to take the legal route to get my citizenship.
This has been explained over and over again

1) There are gaps in the economic levels that are allowed to immigrate and there are restrictions on various immigration visas. I don't doubt that they were put there for good reasons, but they do impair immigration when people either want to hire, or want to be hired.

I;ll bring up the next point next.

Quote:
You speak of illegals creating competion in the US workforce without acknowledging that the playing field is not level. Illegals can work for less because they don't pay taxes. If they do pay taxes it's because they have stolen someone's identity.
No, I know they are not playing on a "level" playing field, as aren't the Chinese workers, the Indian workers, the Brazilian workers ect. It has been brought up that they do pay taxes such as sales taxes and property taxes leaving the income tax and paycheck taxes to pay. Whatever moral quarrels you have with identify thief in order to work is irrelevant to the how "uneven" the playing field is. If they do steal an identity to work then they are "leveling" the playing field no matter what you think of the morality.

The larger picture is that increased globalization has opened up the job market to capitalists and workers. The US is no longer the go to country for goods and by extension it's workers can't make the same demands. Labor laws, the way taxes are spent, etc will have to change to meet the new economic climate. The minimal wage may have to be lowered etc. It is better to create a system that is more open and more responsive to change than to protect limited interest and create more economic hurdles to the movement of people.

Quote:
Our immigration system was designed to control the immigrant population to keep workers and jobs on an even keel. When you sneak in because it is too hard to go the legal route it shows your lack of integrety and that you don't have the skills needed in the US. We have enough unskilled people in the US and we don't need to import poverty.
I would suggest you look at the history of immigration controls. Its secondary functions where to act on whatever bigotry was in the day; see the Chinese immigration control and the emphasis on Northern Europe as opposed to Southern European immigration. Though immigration by its nature is mostly related to economic reasons. Why aren't people immigrating to Nigeria? Because there are limited economic opportunities there. I would suggest a realinement of immigration control as a function of security and not as some kind of Soviet Union style central planning idea.

Quote:
You also have the nerve to say that US citizens should lobby to change the laws in Mexico to make it more favorable for us to move there and work.
The nerve? Why would that be offensive? Americans have a wide range of skills that would be very useful to the Mexican workforce. Some of those skills are in relatively higher demand than in the US so their wages would be at a premium. It would benefit some Americans to emigrate if their skills were needed else where. Do you think it would be better if Mexico put more barriers up to Americans wanting to immigrate to Mexico or less?


Quote:
Not ONCE do you consider that illegals should take responsibility for themselves. For some reason you believe that the rest of the world should cater to the whims of those that want to take the easy way out and to "H" with anyone that won't cater to them and them alone. You have a lot of nerve calling some one else lazy.
I think illegals should take responsibility for themselves and for the most part the do. They don't ask for government subsidies to cross the border, it is mostly self financed. A lot do honest work here in the US in the sense that they are willing to exchange their goods for services and would pay taxes and get all necessary insurance if they were able. I think that a lot of the problem with Mexicans "not taking responsibility" is that they are legally prevented from doing so. I think that if there were some sort of agreement to allow illegal immigrants to become citizens then the costs should be bore by the illegal immigrants even though I don't mind paying, but I imagine others would. I think illegal immigrants should pay if they took someone's ID a fee in order to clear up any issues related to that ID etc.

But yes I think many Americans, in the broader sense are "lazy" in that they don't recognize world wide economic conditions and feel entitled to jobs which aren't any one country's to begin with. American would be better off recognizing the economic situation as it is, and adjusting to that instead of trying to enact protectionist, big brother, big government, measures.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I'd be shocked if more than a tiny percentage of illegals made enough money to qualify to pay federal income taxes. Most taxes are not avoidable, of course, so this doesn't actually hold water.

However you're right that the lack of even playing field (which actually works both ways, since employers are risking being caught and thus incurring added costs when they employ illegal immigrants) can distort the market. Legalization of the workers would fix that.
What’s that? According to pro-illegal propaganda, at least 75% of illegal aliens are paying taxes. Oh, that’s right. . . they pay FICA taxes through their stolen and/or fake IDs, as well as sales tax. Unfortunately, those taxes don’t pay for their welfare, WIC, subsidized housing, food stamps, K-12 education, police, fire, EMS, road repair, trash collection, etc.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
Or how about



This has been explained over and over again

1) There are gaps in the economic levels that are allowed to immigrate and there are restrictions on various immigration visas. I don't doubt that they were put there for good reasons, but they do impair immigration when people either want to hire, or want to be hired.

I;ll bring up the next point next.



No, I know they are not playing on a "level" playing field, as aren't the Chinese workers, the Indian workers, the Brazilian workers ect. It has been brought up that they do pay taxes such as sales taxes and property taxes leaving the income tax and paycheck taxes to pay. Whatever moral quarrels you have with identify thief in order to work is irrelevant to the how "uneven" the playing field is. If they do steal an identity to work then they are "leveling" the playing field no matter what you think of the morality.

The larger picture is that increased globalization has opened up the job market to capitalists and workers. The US is no longer the go to country for goods and by extension it's workers can't make the same demands. Labor laws, the way taxes are spent, etc will have to change to meet the new economic climate. The minimal wage may have to be lowered etc. It is better to create a system that is more open and more responsive to change than to protect limited interest and create more economic hurdles to the movement of people.



I would suggest you look at the history of immigration controls. Its secondary functions where to act on whatever bigotry was in the day; see the Chinese immigration control and the emphasis on Northern Europe as opposed to Southern European immigration. Though immigration by its nature is mostly related to economic reasons. Why aren't people immigrating to Nigeria? Because there are limited economic opportunities there. I would suggest a realinement of immigration control as a function of security and not as some kind of Soviet Union style central planning idea.

The nerve? Why would that be offensive? Americans have a wide range of skills that would be very useful to the Mexican workforce. Some of those skills are in relatively higher demand than in the US so their wages would be at a premium. It would benefit some Americans to emigrate if their skills were needed else where. Do you think it would be better if Mexico put more barriers up to Americans wanting to immigrate to Mexico or less?


I think illegals should take responsibility for themselves and for the most part the do. They don't ask for government subsidies to cross the border, it is mostly self financed. A lot do honest work here in the US in the sense that they are willing to exchange their goods for services and would pay taxes and get all necessary insurance if they were able. I think that a lot of the problem with Mexicans "not taking responsibility" is that they are legally prevented from doing so. I think that if there were some sort of agreement to allow illegal immigrants to become citizens then the costs should be bore by the illegal immigrants even though I don't mind paying, but I imagine others would. I think illegal immigrants should pay if they took someone's ID a fee in order to clear up any issues related to that ID etc.

But yes I think many Americans, in the broader sense are "lazy" in that they don't recognize world wide economic conditions and feel entitled to jobs which aren't any one country's to begin with. American would be better off recognizing the economic situation as it is, and adjusting to that instead of trying to enact protectionist, big brother, big government, measures.
In other words, the USA belongs to the world, and anyone who wants to live or work here should have that right. The actual citizens of this country have no right to expect U.S. companies to hire U.S. citizens for work done in this country, nor should we begrudge them for outsourcing to foreign lands for cheap labor. So what if millions of citizens are left unemployed and homeless due to dwindling jobs. Since we must compete against the ‘slave’ wages in China and India, we should lower our standards and be willing to accept those paltry wages as well. After all, illegal aliens are willing to work for less, so why shouldn’t we.
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