U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:53 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,655 times
Reputation: 24

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, the USA belongs to the world, and anyone who wants to live or work here should have that right. The actual citizens of this country have no right to expect U.S. companies to hire U.S. citizens for work done in this country, nor should we begrudge them for outsourcing to foreign lands for cheap labor. So what if millions of citizens are left unemployed and homeless due to dwindling jobs. Since we must compete against the Ďslaveí wages in China and India, we should lower our standards and be willing to accept those paltry wages as well. After all, illegal aliens are willing to work for less, so why shouldnít we.
I would suggest you read what I said and not what you think I said.

 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:53 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Whatís that? According to pro-illegal propaganda, at least 75% of illegal aliens are paying taxes. Oh, thatís right. . . they pay FICA taxes through their stolen and/or fake IDs, as well as sales tax. Unfortunately, those taxes donít pay for their welfare, WIC, subsidized housing, food stamps, K-12 education, police, fire, EMS, road repair, trash collection, etc.
I mean, you do recognize the differences between income taxes and other taxes, right?
 
Old 07-09-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I mean, you do recognize the differences between income taxes and other taxes, right?
Of course, I do. However, you guys love to spew that 75% BS, so I thought I would break it down for ya. In other words, whatever illegals pay, it isnít even a drop in the bucket.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I would suggest you read what I said and not what you think I said.
Oh, so we DONíT need to grant visas to all who wish to work in this country? And, we donít need to become more competitive in the global market by lowering our standards and wages? And, U.S. citizens arenít lazy and spoiled, and we donít expect too much? Well, then, I stand corrected.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:06 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
Reputation: 1544
[quote=VerticalReasoning;19947808]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Or how about



This has been explained over and over agai

My replies are in bold


1) There are gaps in the economic levels that are allowed to immigrate and there are restrictions on various immigration visas. I don't doubt that they were put there for good reasons, but they do impair immigration when people either want to hire, or want to be hired.

And like you said, they were put there for good reason. If you don't like the rules don't play the game. And if you get caught cheating don't complain when you are removed from the game.


I;ll bring up the next point next.



No, I know they are not playing on a "level" playing field, as aren't the Chinese workers, the Indian workers, the Brazilian workers ect. It has been brought up that they do pay taxes such as sales taxes and property taxes leaving the income tax and paycheck taxes to pay. Whatever moral quarrels you have with identify thief in order to work is irrelevant to the how "uneven" the playing field is. If they do steal an identity to work then they are "leveling" the playing field no matter what you think of the morality.

Whatever MORAL questions I have about identity theft? Are you kidding? Do you realize that if someone steals your identity you are stuck paying the taxes on income someone else earned? And sales tax doesn't pay for squat. Property taxes are paid by a landlord if you are renting and they are paid whether the occupant is legal or not....or if the dwelling is unoccupied. When I sold some property last year I had to prove that the party I was selling to had the legal right to purchase the property.

The larger picture is that increased globalization has opened up the job market to capitalists and workers. The US is no longer the go to country for goods and by extension it's workers can't make the same demands. Labor laws, the way taxes are spent, etc will have to change to meet the new economic climate. The minimal wage may have to be lowered etc. It is better to create a system that is more open and more responsive to change than to protect limited interest and create more economic hurdles to the movement of people.


Better for who? I expect my government to protect her citizens rather than those here illegally. Do you really think citizens would agree that we should lower our wages to allow those here illegally to stay?


I would suggest you look at the history of immigration controls. Its secondary functions where to act on whatever bigotry was in the day; see the Chinese immigration control and the emphasis on Northern Europe as opposed to Southern European immigration. Though immigration by its nature is mostly related to economic reasons. Why aren't people immigrating to Nigeria? Because there are limited economic opportunities there. I would suggest a realinement of immigration control as a function of security and not as some kind of Soviet Union style central planning idea.

Considering the economic problems our country is faced with today...I would advocate for keeping the primary focus on economics. And considering the US has the highest emigration of Hispanics of any country in the world I believe your bigotry argument to be extremely far fetched.



The nerve? Why would that be offensive? Americans have a wide range of skills that would be very useful to the Mexican workforce. Some of those skills are in relatively higher demand than in the US so their wages would be at a premium. It would benefit some Americans to emigrate if their skills were needed else where. Do you think it would be better if Mexico put more barriers up to Americans wanting to immigrate to Mexico or less?


My point is that Mexicans should lobby to make THEIR OWN country better instead of invading the US and telling her citizens to lobby to Mexico so they can go there to find jobs once they have been displaced in their own country.


I think illegals should take responsibility for themselves and for the most part the do. They don't ask for government subsidies to cross the border, it is mostly self financed. A lot do honest work here in the US in the sense that they are willing to exchange their goods for services and would pay taxes and get all necessary insurance if they were able. I think that a lot of the problem with Mexicans "not taking responsibility" is that they are legally prevented from doing so. I think that if there were some sort of agreement to allow illegal immigrants to become citizens then the costs should be bore by the illegal immigrants even though I don't mind paying, but I imagine others would. I think illegal immigrants should pay if they took someone's ID a fee in order to clear up any issues related to that ID etc.

Do you even read what you write? If illegals took responsibility for themselves they would lobby in THEIR OWN COUNTRY to see that changes are made THERE so they don't need to come here illegally. Mexico has a 4% unemployment rate and free health care. They may not get paid as much but for some odd reason they think US citizens should be fine with them coming here illegally and lowering OUR pay scale?

But yes I think many Americans, in the broader sense are "lazy" in that they don't recognize world wide economic conditions and feel entitled to jobs which aren't any one country's to begin with. American would be better off recognizing the economic situation as it is, and adjusting to that instead of trying to enact protectionist, big brother, big government, measures.
That really takes the cake, LMAO. Americans are lazy because they don't want foreigners coming here, lowering our wages, depleting our resources and taking our jobs. And no one is trying to enact big brother etc rules....they have been there all along. Illegals just ignored them and now they want to complain about it? It was TOO HARD to follow the rules, yet we are the lazy ones??? So sorry but I think your reasoning is somewhere up in the clouds. You may want to take a look at reality.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:15 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,655 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Oh, so we DONíT need to grant visas to all who wish to work in this country?
I guess I have to correct your emotive language again. No not everyone who wants to come here should be able to, but the amount of hurdles for someone to come here should be significantly lowered

Quote:
And, we donít need to become more competitive in the global market by lowering our standards and wages?
This is going to happen regardless. Certain standards and wages will be sustainable because of the extra value they provide, but other wages will certainly drop, not because of someone just wants it to happen but because of extra competition in the market created by new entrants.

Quote:
And, U.S. citizens arenít lazy and spoiled, and we donít expect too much? Well, then, I stand corrected.
Some are in the sense that they want government protection for their jobs instead of competing in the market place. In that sense, I think US bankers are exceptionally lazy.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:23 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I guess I have to correct your emotive language again. No not everyone who wants to come here should be able to, but the amount of hurdles for someone to come here should be significantly lowered

Why should they be lowered?

This is going to happen regardless. Certain standards and wages will be sustainable because of the extra value they provide, but other wages will certainly drop, not because of someone just wants it to happen but because of extra competition in the market created by new entrants.

If we are competeting with overseas markets at least we aren't feeding, clothing, and educating their children.

Some are in the sense that they want government protection for their jobs instead of competing in the market place. In that sense, I think US bankers are exceptionally lazy.

Well I'm glad we are having illegals taking banking jobs now.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:23 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,655 times
Reputation: 24
[quote=Isitmeorarethingsnuts?;19948172]

Good use of bold

Quote:
[b]That really takes the cake, LMAO. Americans are lazy because they don't want foreigners coming here, lowering our wages, depleting our resources and taking our jobs.
I guess I will have to explain it to you again. They are not your jobs, there are no American jobs, or Brazilian jobs, etc. Your job and my job are just as vulnerable to be taken by any one any where.

Quote:
And no one is trying to enact big brother etc rules....they have been there all along.
Apparently so. We hear of people originally granting the police powers to stop anyone at any time to check identification until someone pointed out that broke the constitution, then it got changed to whatever constitutionally it would allow. There are laws now about who can and cannot have housing. etc.

Quote:
Illegals just ignored them and now they want to complain about it?
I am complaining about them because I think they are economically hurting the US's ability to compete.


Quote:
It was TOO HARD to follow the rules, yet we are the lazy ones???
I think some people are lazy, when they want the government to stop in and protect their jobs. I don't think the US is the worst offender in this by far though. Japanese rice farmers for example and French dairy farmers are some of the worst offenders.

Quote:
So sorry but I think your reasoning is somewhere up in the clouds. You may want to take a look at reality.
Dude, I have been talking about the reality of the globalization of jobs from the last 10 posts and how outsourcing and immigration are flip sides of the same coin etc. That is pretty much as real as it gets.
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I guess I have to correct your emotive language again. No not everyone who wants to come here should be able to, but the amount of hurdles for someone to come here should be significantly lowered
I am trying to understand why the U.S., which grants visas to more people in this world than all other countries combined, should eliminate “hurdles” for people who obviously do not meet our standards, or our needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
This is going to happen regardless. Certain standards and wages will be sustainable because of the extra value they provide, but other wages will certainly drop, not because of someone just wants it to happen but because of extra competition in the market created by new entrants.
Again, we should accept the ‘slave’ wages being paid in China and India. Otherwise, we will not remain competitive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
Some are in the sense that they want government protection for their jobs instead of competing in the market place. In that sense, I think US bankers are exceptionally lazy.
So, the citizens of this country should not expect jobs from U.S. corporations? We should applaud our manufacturing companies and others who have jumped ship for lower wages overseas, while our own citizens are unable to find gainful employment? Well, if most of our jobs leave this country, or if most of our companies employ foreigners, where in the world will the citizens of this country work? And, if citizens can’t work, they certainly can’t purchase goods and services, or pay taxes. Then what?
 
Old 07-09-2011, 08:36 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
Reputation: 1544
[quote=VerticalReasoning;19948351]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post

Good use of bold

I guess I will have to explain it to you again. They are not your jobs, there are no American jobs, or Brazilian jobs, etc. Your job and my job are just as vulnerable to be taken by any one any where.

Well considering many businesses are subsidized by taxpayer money I guess they are OUR jobs. And you have explained absolutely nothing to me.



Apparently so. We hear of people originally granting the police powers to stop anyone at any time to check identification until someone pointed out that broke the constitution, then it got changed to whatever constitutionally it would allow. There are laws now about who can and cannot have housing. etc.

I would guess if it were illegal to be in the country illegally those laws were also in place when the illegals came here. No changes there. The feds got lax on enforcing them.

I am complaining about them because I think they are economically hurting the US's ability to compete.

And I think feeding, clothing, and housing people that are here to take our jobs are undermining our economy.


I think some people are lazy, when they want the government to stop in and protect their jobs. I don't think the US is the worst offender in this by far though. Japanese rice farmers for example and French dairy farmers are some of the worst offenders.

It is not lazy to expect our politicians to protect us. That is what WE THE CITIZENS pay them to do.

Dude, I have been talking about the reality of the globalization of jobs from the last 10 posts and how outsourcing and immigration are flip sides of the same coin etc. That is pretty much as real as it gets.
And like I said, if someone in India takes a job, at least we aren't taking care of their families here in the US.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top