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Old 07-09-2011, 04:43 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,690,207 times
Reputation: 22158

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
The years and years of appeals are the price we (taxpayers) must pay to "ensure" accuracy and fairness in a judicial process where the ultimate outcome (death) is irreversible.

You also cannot deny appeals to people who are "obviously" guilty because that would violate the US Constitution.

IMHO the only correct way to deal with the death penalty is to abolish it. Even as the system stands, the appeals process is fatally flawed in that defendants are railroaded through the system in such a manner that evidence of actual innocence can be missed or, if discovered, declared inadmissible. You heard that right. Evidence of actual innocence is not enough to stop an execution if judges determine that a procedural error did not take place. Seriously...read up on it. It's terrifying.

Plus, and I NEVER thought I'd say this, I agree with zacatecana. Death is the easy way out. And you're not going to see prisons full of old farts in their 80s and 90s. They aren't now and won't be later. Your life expectancy in prison is greatly reduced due to the extremely high incidence of hepatitis/HIV, a poor diet, reduced access to health care including a near complete lack of access to preventive health care, etc. Due to these circumstances you aren't likely to survive to be an old fart in prison. And even if you do, they can turn you out on compassionate or medical grounds. You'll still be the taxpayers' problem, but you won't be the justice system's expense anymore.

I'm as anti-illegal as they come, but I'm also very much against capital punishment because IMHO the risk of executing an innocent person is too high and to me, it's not worth keeping a system where an innocent person would have to endure the horror of being on death row, then being executed for a crime they did not commit.
Still - the death penalty varies by state. It's about state's rights, not international law, not even USA law.

No international law can say that the state of Texas must determine citizenship or contact foreign governments to get their murderers in Texas off the hook. Now a state like Arizona has a law that states the immigration status of those arrested will be determined, Texas doesn't have such a law. Texas doesn't have to determine immigration status and Mexico has had all the years this guy has been on death row to figure out he's here, but instead they wait until the last minute.

That's because Mexico doesn't really care about these thugs, it just has an opportunity to make some international incident and pretend to protest but it's not going to do anything now that it's done.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I'm pretty sure there's no problem in any state in trying to ascertain the citizneship of anyone who is actually arrested.

You do realize there's a difference between figuring out the citizenship of someone who has already been arrested and just randomly stopping someone just because you think he might be an illegal alien, right?
That’s not entirely true. Some jurisdictions prohibit such inquiries, considering it discrimination. That is precisely why so many states are fighting for the right to ascertain immigration status at the time of arrest. Heck, they just recently began identifying illegal aliens in our penal systems.

I know for a fact, in Montgomery County, MD, they still will not inquire about immigration status unless the person is arrested for a violent crime. In other words, their officers may NOT question the immigration status of illegal alien drug dealers, shoplifters, etc, unless they involved violence in their crimes.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:55 PM
 
Location: North Texas
23,599 posts, read 31,135,299 times
Reputation: 26656
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Still - the death penalty varies by state. It's about state's rights, not international law, not even USA law.

No international law can say that the state of Texas must determine citizenship or contact foreign governments to get their murderers in Texas off the hook. Now a state like Arizona has a law that states the immigration status of those arrested will be determined, Texas doesn't have such a law. Texas doesn't have to determine immigration status and Mexico has had all the years this guy has been on death row to figure out he's here, but instead they wait until the last minute.

That's because Mexico doesn't really care about these thugs, it just has an opportunity to make some international incident and pretend to protest but it's not going to do anything now that it's done.
You're assuming that I disagree with Texas executing Leal. I don't, per se. I think consular access would not have changed the outcome of his trial and hence is not germane to his defense, it's just a BS last minute hail mary, no different from the other BS last minute hail marys you see from anyone about to be executed. It's just that this particular situation (executing a foreigner) is unusual even for Texas, so it became newsworthy.

I object to all states executing anyone for the reasons I outlined above. Given that most of the appeals process takes place at the circuit or federal level, it's about more than states' rights IMHO. But that's another discussion for another forum.
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Old 07-09-2011, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
22 posts, read 33,702 times
Reputation: 19
The title is very misleading.
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:08 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,975,174 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by SitNSnooze2 View Post
Death row is more expensive than life in prison.
Your proof? Nit just your opinion, actual proof. This person could have lived another sixty years at the taxpayers expense. How is this less expensive than death row and death?
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:22 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,975,174 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
His nationality is irrelevant. Texas broke international law.
Not according to the Supreme court. You know, the final arbitrators of the law.
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
526 posts, read 412,003 times
Reputation: 945
Let me get this straight: The Obama administration and its allies and supporters loudly proclaim that people brought here illegally as children are really Americans, that they deserve all the same rights and privileges as American citizens, and in fact should be made American citizens as soon as possible.

Now one of them commits a heinous crime - brutally raping, torturing, and killing a 16 yr old girl. Now all of a sudden this person is a Mexican citizen, considered a foreign national under international law, and therefore not subject to the same laws and punishments as any other Texan.

Do I have that right?
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:48 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,760 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
That’s not entirely true. Some jurisdictions prohibit such inquiries, considering it discrimination. That is precisely why so many states are fighting for the right to ascertain immigration status at the time of arrest. Heck, they just recently began identifying illegal aliens in our penal systems.

I know for a fact, in Montgomery County, MD, they still will not inquire about immigration status unless the person is arrested for a violent crime. In other words, their officers may NOT question the immigration status of illegal alien drug dealers, shoplifters, etc, unless they involved violence in their crimes.
Meh, it doesn't really matter anyway, since the various "check immigration status" laws coming down the pike have nothing to do with people who have already been arrested.
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZone View Post
Let me get this straight: The Obama administration and its allies and supporters loudly proclaim that people brought here illegally as children are really Americans, that they deserve all the same rights and privileges as American citizens, and in fact should be made American citizens as soon as possible.

Now one of them commits a heinous crime - brutally raping, torturing, and killing a 16 yr old girl. Now all of a sudden this person is a Mexican citizen, considered a foreign national under international law, and therefore not subject to the same laws and punishments as any other Texan.

Do I have that right?
Indeed you do. They are only “foreign nationals” when they commit a heinous crime. Otherwise, they are “undocumented Americans.” And, when they do commit a heinous crime, their government has every right to intervene on their behalf. After all, they are not citizens of this country. Furthermore, they are somehow simultaneously “under the jurisdiction” of a foreign government and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” of the U.S. when they give birth on our soil. Crazy, isn’t it?
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Meh, it doesn't really matter anyway, since the various "check immigration status" laws coming down the pike have nothing to do with people who have already been arrested.
Pro-illegals whine about every proposed law. Even those that clearly state that immigration status will not be questioned unless a person has been arrested. Do you believe we should determine the immigration status of those arrested?
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