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Old 07-12-2011, 08:03 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
So in other words, you have no valid reason, just a desire to make as easy as possible for illegals here to declare their rights for their native country and this one.

Talk about hypocrisy.
...that's hypocritical?

My point (again lol) is that "earning" citizenship is not something that anyone considers necessary, it's just something that your side has made seem necessary in order to bolster the cause. If everyone in the country was given a free car except for people from New Jersey, and someone from New Jersey was like "hey, I want a free car" it would be pretty weird to say "what did you do to earn that car?" There was no criteria you had to fulfill to "earn" the car in that sense.

I don't believe that there should be zero criteria for immigrating here. But it needs to be noted that ANY criteria imposed on immigrants is inherently going to be more than is asked of natural born citizens. The idea that citizenship MUST be earned is an idea that we already reject.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,186 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Anything newer than 50 years ago?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Perhaps I missed it, but I didnít see the part where they received medals for their participation, as you previously stated. Furthermore, how is a war crime in Vietnam even remotely related to this issue? So, are you suggesting we should not punish rapists and murderers simply because 40+ years ago, a group of U.S. soldiers were accused of committing a heinous crime? Or, are you simply grasping at straws to defend this scumbag?
I didn't know that the crimes had to be "fresh." But here you go:

Mahmudiyah killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was done by several soldiers, none of whom were sentenced to death. (fortunately)

In his first interview since the killings Green was quoted as saying "I didn't think of Iraqis as humans." Another soldier said later that "the violence he had encountered in Iraq left him "angry and mean" toward Iraqis."


That's what the military teaches people: to kill by hate. If you don't know that, you are naive. There is no other word for it. People who go into the military should know beforehand that they won't be used to plant flowers.


Here's another unpleasant case, no rape involved. Just people happy to kill:

Maywand District killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although they didn't rape, they posed smiling with dead bodies.



As for the medals:

If you want to know the truth, you have to be honest and look. Getting honest is important to our own humanity.

Here are Mr. Koster's "winnings":

"Following his demotion, Koster was reassigned to become deputy commander of Maryland's Aberdeen Proving Ground, in charge of Army weapons testing. He retired from the military in 1973. His decorations included the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and the Legion of Merit. His sons are career Army officers, two having graduated from West Point."

Nothing to be proud of, imo.


Peace,
brian
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,186 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
No you stated that the military rewards such behaviors. As in its the policy or the norm.
It is not.My Lai incident is not viewed as acceptable. You have not proven your case. You might check out article 118 of the UCMJ....
Also check article 120.
The fact that the UCMJ forbids such acts demonstrates you are wrong.
By your logic. The United states of America rewards murders and rapists simply because these things happen in our country.
Because these crimes happen during war does not mean they are rewarded nor were they an intended outcome.
Are the only people given the death penalty for such crimes in this country mexican?
Do you think that just because there is a law made, that the government abides by it?? If so, there's really no point in continuing this conversation.
"The fact that the UCMJ forbids such acts" proves nothing. Zero.

(BTW, try telling the ones in Vietnam that My Lai "is not acceptable." I'm sure they'd be happy to hear you say that.

My point is, that you can't kill one person for an act, and not even sentence another person for the same act just because they were "at war."

And yes, soldiers are rewarded for defeating the enemy (aka killing). They aren't rewarded for making peace or making friends. Much of the atrocities that occur in war are not recorded or confessed. I'm surprised that some people still don't realise that.

Code of silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Peace,
brian
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,878,727 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Do you think that just because there is a law made, that the government abides by it?? If so, there's really no point in continuing this conversation.
"The fact that the UCMJ forbids such acts" proves nothing. Zero.

(BTW, try telling the ones in Vietnam that My Lai "is not acceptable." I'm sure they'd be happy to hear you say that.

My point is, that you can't kill one person for an act, and not even sentence another person for the same act just because they were "at war."

And yes, soldiers are rewarded for defeating the enemy (aka killing). They aren't rewarded for making peace or making friends. Much of the atrocities that occur in war are not recorded or confessed. I'm surprised that some people still don't realise that.

Code of silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Peace,
brian
Rewarded for killing in battle. Not for targeting defencless noncombatants. Not for targeting non designated targets. No reward system is in place for rape. Or murder.
There is a huge difference between killing and murder
someone breaks into you home and you defend yourself. The intruder is killed.
The intruder breaks into a home smashes a cinderblock over a victims head killing them so they cant later identify them that is murder.
In most cases when a soldier is involved in a wrongful killing on the battlefield or else where they are held accountable not rewarded as you suggest.
I am a combat vet are you? I never nor do I know anyother soldier who targeted an unarmed civilian. Nor have I ever heard of or met a soldier rewarded for such. I do know of a few who got prison time for such acts. In war some soldiers will go rogue. They are the exception not the rule.
Once again there is no reward system in place for violating the UCMJ.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:56 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,153 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post

Regarding the ďrightsĒ of this cold-blooded rapist/murderer, he received legal counsel at taxpayersí expense, as well as a trial. Itís hilarious that pro-illegals advocate for illegal aliens to be treated the same as U.S. citizens, when they can benefit. But, believe they should be treated as foreign nationals when they face criminal charges. You canít have it both ways. If he were a DREAMie, you would be saying he is as much an ďAmericanĒ as citizens.
Exactly. He wanted to be an American? He got his wish. Illegals want it both ways. They want the right to be Americans when it benefits them and foreign nationals when it does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
We were not discussing legal rights, we were discussing who "deserves" what. My point was only that insofar as no immigrant "deserves" to be a citizen, neither does any random citizen who was born here. Thus, the whole issue of who "deserves" what should be ignored.
Everyone has a society. If you want to be a part of someone else's society you'd better be prepared to follow the rules of that society. Immigrants are guests in our home. They ought to behave themselves. I would if I were visiting theirs. Illegals are burglers. They should leave. I would also never think of breaking into someone's house and then complaining that they wanted me to leave.

This belief of yours that Americans are somehow not entitled to democratically determine what kind of society they want and who should live here is ludicrous. Ultimately you are arguing in favor of nothing more than mob rule. Or worse, rule by a handful of elite plutocrats who want to essentially enslave and disenfranchise others so you can meet your own fiscal and moral goals.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:02 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Everyone has a society. If you want to be a part of someone else's society you'd better be prepared to follow the rules of that society. Immigrants are guests in our home. They ought to behave themselves. I would if I were visiting theirs. Illegals are burglers. They should leave. I would also never think of breaking into someone's house and then complaining that they wanted me to leave.
Homes are personal property, countries are not. You do not have property rights in the whole of the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
This belief of yours that Americans are somehow not entitled to democratically determine what kind of society they want and who should live here is ludicrous. Ultimately you are arguing in favor of nothing more than mob rule. Or worse, rule by a handful of elite plutocrats who want to essentially enslave and disenfranchise others so you can meet your own fiscal and moral goals.
What are you on about? Democratically determine? You think that we should all vote on immigration policy?

But I like that you follow that up by saying I want "mob rule." You just complained about a lack of democracy (which I somehow endorsed, in your eyes), and then turn around and say I want "mob rule." Sounds like that's what you want.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:34 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,096,522 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Homes are personal property, countries are not. You do not have property rights in the whole of the United States.



What are you on about? Democratically determine? You think that we should all vote on immigration policy?

But I like that you follow that up by saying I want "mob rule." You just complained about a lack of democracy (which I somehow endorsed, in your eyes), and then turn around and say I want "mob rule." Sounds like that's what you want.
Countries are sovereign governments. If you want to conquer it go to war with it. If not than abide by the rules of governments within those borders.

sounds like you have a taste for war.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:52 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Countries are sovereign governments. If you want to conquer it go to war with it. If not than abide by the rules of governments within those borders.

sounds like you have a taste for war.
Yes, the government has property rights in the whole of the nation, correct. They can choose how to enforce and protect that property right. That's what we're discussing here.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Like I said, there is an obvious hypocrisy here.

Your point of view is that natural born citizens do not have to earn citizenship, but immigrants do. My point was simply that by your own admission, citizenship is not necessarily something you earn. You need to explain to me why you feel they absolutely need to earn it when you and I did no such thing.

I'm not opposed to providing a defense for the accused, regardless of their citizenship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
...that's hypocritical?

My point (again lol) is that "earning" citizenship is not something that anyone considers necessary, it's just something that your side has made seem necessary in order to bolster the cause. If everyone in the country was given a free car except for people from New Jersey, and someone from New Jersey was like "hey, I want a free car" it would be pretty weird to say "what did you do to earn that car?" There was no criteria you had to fulfill to "earn" the car in that sense.

I don't believe that there should be zero criteria for immigrating here. But it needs to be noted that ANY criteria imposed on immigrants is inherently going to be more than is asked of natural born citizens. The idea that citizenship MUST be earned is an idea that we [i]already reject[/I].
Like it, or not, according to the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, those born in this country receive automatic citizenship, with a few exceptions. Sorry, but babies are not required to do anything to earn their citizenship. It is conferred by virtue of their birth on U.S. soil. And, your opposition to our laws is immaterial. It is what it is.

Illegal aliens were not born in this country, nor were they born abroad to U.S. citizens. Hence, they are NOT U.S. citizens. They are citizens of their respective countries. If they desire to become a U.S. citizen, they must comply with our requirements, which, by the way, do not include illegal entry, ID theft, fraud, tax evasion, or visa violations. Itís just that simple.

Your New Jersey car analogy is complete and utter nonsense. Get a grip on yourself.

Stop playing games, and answer my question. Have illegal aliens done anything to earn a path to citizenship? If yes, please provide specific examples. This subject is off topic, so this will be my last request for a response on this thread.

By the way, this scumbag received a defense.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:48 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Like it, or not, according to the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, those born in this country receive automatic citizenship, with a few exceptions. Sorry, but babies are not required to do anything to earn their citizenship. It is conferred by virtue of their birth on U.S. soil. And, your opposition to our laws is immaterial. It is what it is.

Illegal aliens were not born in this country, nor were they born abroad to U.S. citizens. Hence, they are NOT U.S. citizens. They are citizens of their respective countries. If they desire to become a U.S. citizen, they must comply with our requirements, which, by the way, do not include illegal entry, ID theft, fraud, tax evasion, or visa violations. Itís just that simple.

Your New Jersey car analogy is complete and utter nonsense. Get a grip on yourself.

Stop playing games, and answer my question. Have illegal aliens done anything to earn a path to citizenship? If yes, please provide specific examples. This subject is off topic, so this will be my last request for a response on this thread.

By the way, this scumbag received a defense.
My whole point, of course, is that "earning" citizenship is not something we believe to be a necessary condition. I'll leave it to you to miss that point over and over again.

And yes, illegals have sacrificed time and frequently money, as well as risked capture, to be here. Far more than natural born citizens do. I mean, clearly immigrants of all kinds do more than natural born citizens to "earn" citizenship.
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