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Old 07-10-2011, 05:54 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,711 times
Reputation: 24

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I will not lend credence to a thread that insults this forum, by comparing us to such a despicable group as Stormfront. He should have made his point without injecting their quotes.
I agree. Now if you could just point out which quotes are from Stormfront and which ones are from this forum I will petition the poster on your behalf for the removal of the Stormfront quotes.

 
Old 07-10-2011, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,822,205 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
I agree. Now if you could just point out which quotes are from Stormfront and which ones are from this forum I will petition the poster on your behalf.
He did not identify the quotes. So, you will have to ask him where they originated. In any case, I am through with this thread.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 06:00 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,711 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
He did not identify the quotes. So, you will have to ask him where they originated. In any case, I am through with this thread.
Well yea I know, but I figured given the wide range of disparity in thought between the two forums the quotes would be easy to separate. I am willing to petition for your desire to remove the Stormfront quotes which are despicable and the quotes from this forum that are ok, I just need to know which ones are which. You wanted them removed and have been here for a while, perhaps you can help me out.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 06:11 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,183 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
He did not identify the quotes. So, you will have to ask him where they originated. In any case, I am through with this thread.
If the comparison between the SF posts and the posts from here is ridiculous, you should be able to isolate them.

The OP is not race-baiting, it ends with a rather thoughtful discussion of the social psychology involved.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 08:29 PM
 
Location: SELA
532 posts, read 876,829 times
Reputation: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Hmmmm.... La Raza Aztlaner radicals checking out Stormfront for their material.....why am I not surprised?
Are you referring to me as a "La Raza Aztlaner radical"? Though I have expressed my views about those concepts previously, to reiterate, "La Raza" or "La Raza Cosmica" is a concept largely developed by the Mexican philosopher Jose Vasconcellos based on Mexicans being a "hybrid race" of Amerindians and Europeans. While this is technically true of the large majority of Mexicans, there is enormous variance in admixture proportions, and the more Indian-looking majority is subordinated to the more European-looking minority in Mexican racial hierarchy. The concept of "La Raza" is therefore hollow in practical application.

As for "Aztlan," the pre-Mesoamerican origin point of the Aztecs, it was located in the Southwestern cultural region, which includes the U.S. Southwest and northern Mexico. However, within Chicano identity politics, the concept can be abused for the purpose of disrespecting Southwestern Indians, and as a Southwestern Indian through paternal descent, I oppose this application of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It doesn't surprise me at all that La Raza radicals who believe that immigration should be completely unlimited because of one's race IF it is their La Raza race see this as a race issue.
There is no "La Raza race." The very concept of "La Raza" is based on "racial" admixture, and there is enormous variation in admixture proportions, as I stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Exactly why should there be unlimited immigration to the USA, or why should the USA be the only country in the world with no immigration laws yet Mexico can have immigration laws???

Or why should immigration from "la raza" nations be unlimited?
These are strawmen logical fallacies that are not relevant to the topic of the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
And since I don't visit Stormfront, here are some links I can provide. I can display my non-stormfront links:

The Seattle Times: Nation & World: "Aztlan" spurs pride in Latinos, fears among immigration foes

Latin American Post - The Latin American news publication - 'Aztlan' spurs pride in Latinos, fear in others

"For us it represents the migration of our people from the northern area," said Olin Tezcatlipoca, director of the Mexica Movement, an indigenous-rights group based in Huntington Park, Calif., that believes North America is occupied by illegal immigrants from Europe. "The migration is a reality, the language is a reality, the reasons people migrate are a reality."
The Mexica Movement's website prominently declares that, "We reject the Eurocentric and error-filled ideologies of...Aztlan, Mecha, La Raza, U.S. Southwest, Violent Reconquista."

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
"I call that re-Mexicanization, not reconquista," said Navarro, 64. "A new majority is forming. Everything will change. The White House will be within our reach. We might have to change the name to the Brown House."

In David Horowitz's book "The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America," Navarro gets his own chapter. The author writes that Navarro "advocates the overthrow of the U.S. government by Latinos and reclamation of the southwestern United States by Mexico."
It would have been more illuminating for you to quote the section after this sentence:

Quote:
Navarro, in his office surrounded by photos of himself with Fidel Castro and former Nicaraguan leader Daniel Ortega, shakes his head. "I never said that," he said.

Still, he tries to allay fears of a resurgent Aztlan.

"There is no reconquista conspiracy. ... We are returning as a people to a place that was once ours. Does that mean I have dual loyalty? I was an officer in the U.S. Army for eight years. This is all a fabrication of fear-mongers."
I concur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
During the Chicano rights movement of the 1960s, Aztlan became a powerful rallying cry for militants who spoke of a "reconquista," or reconquest, of the Southwest, turning it into an independent homeland for Latino people.

Now, a generation later, the word has lost its radical edge among Latino activists but continues to evoke emotions on both sides of the immigration debate.

"Up until recently I dismissed the idea as a kooky fringe element, but if you look at the demonstrations and see the flags and hear people chanting that this is stolen land and 'we are reclaiming our lost land' it sounds more serious," said Ira Mehlman, spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which supports tough enforcement of immigration laws.
Again, it would have been more illuminating for you to quote more than the selectively plucked sections of the article that you perceived as supportive of your perspective:

Quote:
But demographer Wayne Cornelius said he had seen little evidence that immigrants are looking to take back anything.

"The overriding goal for Mexicans coming into U.S. today is, 'How can I succeed in this society?' There is no incentive for them to behave in the ways that the anti-immigration people allege they are behaving," said Cornelius, director of the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at UC San Diego. "There is no economic point to it."
There is no economic point to it, and more broadly, for the immigrant population to seek this alleged "reconquista" fundamentally conflicts with self-interested behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
---- now why is it again that the La Raza types insist that "their people" are not obliged to respect the immigration laws of this nation? Is it that they really believe that no one from anywhere is expected to abide by them? Why do they not attack their own nation for it's immigration laws?
The administrative staff of professional Hispanic advocacy organizations do not campaign for what you term "their people" if we speak of admixture, as they are generally white to mestizo, whereas illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America are generally Mesoamerican Indians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It doesn't get more racist than to insist your race or your ethnic group is immune from any of our laws it doesn't find convenient, yet when Haitians are rounded up from Miami, they have nothing at all to say for the rights of all Haitians to come here in unlimited numbers. Yes they really are about "La Raza" (The Race).
Haitians have small amounts of European and Amerindian admixture on average. Extending this concept of "La Raza" further, they could conceivably be incorporated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
How not? It's you people demanding unlimited immigration by "The Race" (translation La Raza).

You people are very racist in your arguments why certain people should not be expected to abide by the laws.
Who do you refer to with the phrase "you people"?

Mexicans are also not a racial group according to any criteria, and Hispanics even less so; therefore, usage of the term "The Race" in this way is deliberately misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Op, I would also add that the hand-wringing about how illegals, and Hispanic immigrants in general, are refusing to assimilate (when they actually are) feeds into this as well.
Empirical research certainly flatly contradicts that idea, yet it remains widely espoused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You La Raza types are just the other side of the coin of the White Supremists. You believe that your own ethnic group should not have to abide by laws it doesn't like.
Organized ethnic resistance developed commensurate to institutional negative discrimination organized against subordinate ethnic groups. White supremacist ideology, by contrast, developed in order to sustain the greater power, privilege, and socioeconomic status of the dominant ethnic group. There is a world of difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Then why don't you or the La Raza OP explain without using the race card, why immigration should be unlimited in only the USA?

The USA has BY FAR more legal immigration than any other country. We also have very high unemployment rates, fast dwindling resources, a totally bankrupt government. Why would we have to take in all the impoverished who want to come here? Why shouldn't there be a legal process with laws enforced?
Those are questions/challenges worthy of discussion in their own threads. However, this thread is not about those issues, but is instead of about the tendency of some people to advance ethnic conspiracy theories instead of those challenges that you mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
And yes I've seen Agnaposte's posts in the past. I know he's only got the race card to play and has never yet explained why the USA must take in millions more people and why only the USA should have no immigration laws of any kind.
Nor will I be able to explain those ideas, since they are not ones that I personally advocate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You can be a "La Raza" type without being hispanic you know.
You earlier stated that, "You La Raza types are just the other side of the coin of the White Supremists. You believe that your own ethnic group should not have to abide by laws it doesn't like." Evidently, you conceived of a connection between those you called "La Raza types" and ethnic Hispanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I will not lend credence to a thread that insults this forum, by comparing us to such a despicable group as Stormfront. He should have made his point without injecting their quotes.
Scattering the quotes was a necessary means of demonstrating the commonalities in thought and certain affinities in ideology.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 07:14 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,296,447 times
37 posts deleted for trolling, being off topic or orphaned. Also, just for the record - while it is true we don't want any ties with Stormfront and thus delete all the links to their site, claiming the OP is recruiting new stormfront members (that claim is gone now) is beyond ridiculous and imo is simple trolling or a proof of a serious reading comprehension disability.
Now I'd like to ask everybody who's getting their heart rate up while reading this thread to calm down and use logic instead of emotions. It really works better and doesn't make you look like a fool once the emotional outburst is done.
Yac.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:27 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,585,267 times
Reputation: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
Your not exactly helping yourself out in a thread called immigration and ethnic conspiracy theories.
I don't understand why you think he or she needs to help themselves? They responded with their reply, what does that have to do with helping yourself or not? This doesn't have to be an "our side versus their side thing," yet, that's the feeling I get from your post.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,585,267 times
Reputation: 1270
Also, I'm reading some of the things that the OP quotes and they are basically people's opinions, doesn't necessarily mean they are paranoid about some "ethnic conspiracy." Truth is the truth.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 01:29 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,978 times
Reputation: 60
Do you mean the quotes that the op posted are people speaking the truth?
 
Old 07-11-2011, 02:59 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,276 times
Reputation: 2345
Attempting to paint forum members as mere racists is disgusting and inappropriate. Most people who are against illegal immigration are against it because it is contrary to their economic interests. Insisting that they are merely nothing more than vile racists does nothing but poison the well and shut down the discussion about real racism.

If hispanics come up when discussing illegal immigration it is for one fact and one fact only: because 80% are ALL illegals are Latino. I am Democrat. I am NOT voting for Senator Menendez for reelection because of this fact. If he wants to play identity politics -- and constantly speak for Latinos rather than the needs of all the residents of this state -- then let him face the consequences that non-Latinos will not vote for him.

You can't have it both ways as many seem to want to do on this issue. You can't advocate for your ethnic group and then ask others outside of your ethnic group to support you.

That's exactly what's going on with many supporters of illegal immigration. They are advocating policies that help their communities in the name of identity politics. When those policies directly hurt other members of the community who do not share their ethnicity all they have to say is scream racism.

That's not a convincing argument.
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