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Old 07-13-2011, 11:02 AM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,583,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
The "illegal immigration movement" does not target illegal Mexicans only, it targets illegal immigrants, of course if you are originally from Puerto Rico or Cuba it will make no sense as you are probably already legally in the US.

Many other legal immigrants (Mexicans included) do not favor the illegal immigration movement due to several reasons such as:

- It increases the waiting time for legal immigrants
- Has increased xenophobia
- Legal immigrants which are not family based from latin american countries discriminate "lower classes"

I do not see a point in trying to mark Mexicans as a group with hidden/evil purposes, trying to make the generalization that Mexicans support in general radical "reconquista" movements is just as bad as generalizing that all oppose illegal immigration are racist.
I have Mexican friends, acquaintances and know Mexican people. I would say that 7 out of 10 of them would be described as being VERY proud of their Mexican heritage, don't consider themselves "American" and have either joked about "taking back America" or view Mexicans coming here as a movement. So, no, not all Mexicans feel this way, but there is a considerable amount that come off as trying to create a large Mexican influence in the United States.

To me, it's natural, but that doesn't make it right because it has and will continue to cause problems. I never liked the whole idea that some corporations and the media were promoting that created a big issue over "Hispanics" becoming the majority by 2050, etc.. I don't agree with it because it creates tension. I've seen people comment on the data and I think we could do without emphasis put on one race becoming "majority."

So, you say "you don't see a point," but I do see a point. Anytime you have an emphasis put on a race-related issue there should be caution taking when addressing it. In the case of this topic, those Mexicans who ARE wanting to promote a Hispanic America are basically just like other Nationalist groups (Black and White Nationalists). To me, that's lame and that's just my opinion. The pro-illegal immigrant groups try to talk about how the U.S. is built on diversity, but those Mexican groups who do promote a Hispanic U.S. aren't about diversity, they are about "La Raza." That's not a healthy thing for our nation, so that is one of the reasons I think illegal immigration is hurting us. We are allowing more segregation.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
The "illegal immigration movement" does not target illegal Mexicans only, it targets illegal immigrants, of course if you are originally from Puerto Rico or Cuba it will make no sense as you are probably already legally in the US.

Many other legal immigrants (Mexicans included) do not favor the illegal immigration movement due to several reasons such as:

[1] - It increases the waiting time for legal immigrants
[2] - Has increased xenophobia
[3] - Legal immigrants which are not family based from latin american countries discriminate "lower classes"

I do not see a point in trying to mark Mexicans as a group with hidden/evil purposes, trying to make the generalization that Mexicans support in general radical "reconquista" movements is just as bad as generalizing that all oppose illegal immigration are racist.
As the U.S. citizen sponsor for my Mexican wife and stepchildren, I'm in a good position to address the points you've raised. I've numbered the points for reference. Some may say I've got a rather limited sample size (four Mexican legal immigrants), but it is a starting position.

I can also say of a general nature my family is not very much involved in any advocacy of illegal immigration. They see the effects of the issue, and the uncertainty it gives in our lives. My stance is trying to comfort and help them understand what is happening, as well as to clear up the mistaken notions people may have about us or the process.

Your first point (labeled as "1") is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely wrong. Illegal immigration has no effect on the timeline for legal immigrants. USCIS and State Department processing are what they are, and the important thing to remember is that each immigration case will have estimated times, but are individual in nature. Non-immigrant "visitor" (B2) visas are affected by that country's "overstay" rates, but two-thirds of legal immigrants are coming to the United States by a relationship to U.S. citizen (as our case was), and do not use those "non-immigrant" method.

Of course my family currently identifies themselves as "Mexican", being direct immigrants prior to attaining any U.S. citizenship. There are areas we can "clear up" with that as well, as much of the U.S. population have a mistaken notion that marrying a U.S. citizen confers instant U.S. citizenship or immigration status to the spouse and any minor children. Thus a "Mexican" to them is someone here illegally, without any close relationship to a U.S. citizen.

And by that we get into your second ("2") point. Americans in some locations can be very suspicious of outsiders different in accents and/or appearances. Certainly those biases are raised if there is a perception that someone belongs to a group that is not loyal or seems to have different goals than the observer. I've related the incident of my wife being wrongly identified as an illegal alien without work-authorization by a customer.

Generally Americans do not understand about foreign accents, and readily attach connotations and stereotypes to what they perceive. Xenophobia is going to be extinguished more by exposure, and will take a long time to fully go away. Legal immigrants are as much caught up into being targets of this backlash as illegal immigrants.

On your third point ("3"), I am not really quite sure of what you mean...

Perhaps this is better placed in the "ethnic conspiracy" topic, but my observation of Mexican schools didn't reveal any "reconquista" being taught. Mexicans hate Santa Anna for losing large quantities of Mexican lands, but there is reservation to understanding that what happened is fully within their past. All of the "Aztlan" talk has been generated by Chicanos within the United States, not by the Mexicans themselves.

I agree with you that Mexicans shouldn't be identified as having a hidden and/or evil purpose...

I think I would have seen that by now if it were true...
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingVoltron View Post
And yet we have innumerable posts on how English speaking is such an important part of our "culture" (which I have yet to have anyone even try to define despite repeated requests). Ahh sweet irony.
Yes, the English language is a pivotal part of our “American” culture. However, speaking English, in and of itself, does not make one a member of a particular ethnicity or race, which is precisely what those who espouse the notion of a “Hispanic race” are attempting to do.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Good grief! How many times must I cite the same info? If you want more, it is readily available. GOOGLE!

Immigration - Times Topics - The New York Times

Report Details Growth in Illegal Migration
But Google for more current and correct data. The number of illegal aliens has decreased in the last few years, changing whether the majority entered illegally or legally. The statistics recycles illegal immigration numbers while not doing the same for legal immigrants that naturalize.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: North Texas
23,602 posts, read 31,161,722 times
Reputation: 26673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
The "illegal immigration movement" does not target illegal Mexicans only, it targets illegal immigrants, of course if you are originally from Puerto Rico or Cuba it will make no sense as you are probably already legally in the US.
Puerto Ricans carry US passports and are full-fledged US citizens. They are free to move to mainland US at their pleasure.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:41 PM
 
254 posts, read 520,524 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
As the U.S. citizen sponsor for my Mexican wife and stepchildren, I'm in a good position to address the points you've raised. I've numbered the points for reference. Some may say I've got a rather limited sample size (four Mexican legal immigrants), but it is a starting position.

I can also say of a general nature my family is not very much involved in any advocacy of illegal immigration. They see the effects of the issue, and the uncertainty it gives in our lives. My stance is trying to comfort and help them understand what is happening, as well as to clear up the mistaken notions people may have about us or the process.

Your first point (labeled as "1") is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely wrong. Illegal immigration has no effect on the timeline for legal immigrants. USCIS and State Department processing are what they are, and the important thing to remember is that each immigration case will have estimated times, but are individual in nature. Non-immigrant "visitor" (B2) visas are affected by that country's "overstay" rates, but two-thirds of legal immigrants are coming to the United States by a relationship to U.S. citizen (as our case was), and do not use those "non-immigrant" method.

Of course my family currently identifies themselves as "Mexican", being direct immigrants prior to attaining any U.S. citizenship. There are areas we can "clear up" with that as well, as much of the U.S. population have a mistaken notion that marrying a U.S. citizen confers instant U.S. citizenship or immigration status to the spouse and any minor children. Thus a "Mexican" to them is someone here illegally, without any close relationship to a U.S. citizen.

And by that we get into your second ("2") point. Americans in some locations can be very suspicious of outsiders different in accents and/or appearances. Certainly those biases are raised if there is a perception that someone belongs to a group that is not loyal or seems to have different goals than the observer. I've related the incident of my wife being wrongly identified as an illegal alien without work-authorization by a customer.

Generally Americans do not understand about foreign accents, and readily attach connotations and stereotypes to what they perceive. Xenophobia is going to be extinguished more by exposure, and will take a long time to fully go away. Legal immigrants are as much caught up into being targets of this backlash as illegal immigrants.

On your third point ("3"), I am not really quite sure of what you mean...

Perhaps this is better placed in the "ethnic conspiracy" topic, but my observation of Mexican schools didn't reveal any "reconquista" being taught. Mexicans hate Santa Anna for losing large quantities of Mexican lands, but there is reservation to understanding that what happened is fully within their past. All of the "Aztlan" talk has been generated by Chicanos within the United States, not by the Mexicans themselves.

I agree with you that Mexicans shouldn't be identified as having a hidden and/or evil purpose...

I think I would have seen that by now if it were true...
You are right that illegal immigration does not affect the actual timeline for legal ones, but there is a perception among legal immigrants that it does. The point I was trying to make is that there is no movement originating from Mexico to overtake the US.

In the case of your wife and stepchildren migration was somewhat simple, what I'm focusing on is legal immigrants that come to the US without "help" from US citizens, educated workers mainly.

Legal worker immigrants from Mexico are educated and many do not favor illegal immigrants. Mexico has a classist society, and in many cases these legal immigrants will discriminate against their illegal counterparts. I know these first hand from knowing many educated Mexicans that have legally migrated to the US. The two points usually touched by them is that legal workers have to wait many years, and that there is an anti-Mexican sentiment caused by the illegal ones.

The op posted this thread to disassociate himself with Mexicans, who according to him and other posters in this thread have this agenda to overtake the US by using other Hispanic immigrants. I don't believe this is true, I just think what drives you to join the "illegal immigration movement" is the fact that you are illegal, not that you are Mexican.

Attaching hate reasons to a specific group of people, such as the one proposed by radical movements on both sides of the coin will lead to nothing good.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
But Google for more current and correct data. The number of illegal aliens has decreased in the last few years, changing whether the majority entered illegally or legally. The statistics recycles illegal immigration numbers while not doing the same for legal immigrants that naturalize.
If you have more “current” and "correct" data, please share. Moreover, what proof do you have that the illegal-legal ratio has shifted, and that we now have more legal immigrants than illegal aliens? Sorry, your hunch doesn’t count.

I await your updated info.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowsky View Post
You are right that illegal immigration does not affect the actual timeline for legal ones, but there is a perception among legal immigrants that it does. The point I was trying to make is that there is no movement originating from Mexico to overtake the US.

In the case of your wife and stepchildren migration was somewhat simple, what I'm focusing on is legal immigrants that come to the US without "help" from US citizens, educated workers mainly.

Legal worker immigrants from Mexico are educated and many do not favor illegal immigrants. Mexico has a classist society, and in many cases these legal immigrants will discriminate against their illegal counterparts. I know these first hand from knowing many educated Mexicans that have legally migrated to the US. The two points usually touched by them is that legal workers have to wait many years, and that there is an anti-Mexican sentiment caused by the illegal ones.

The op posted this thread to disassociate himself with Mexicans, who according to him and other posters in this thread have this agenda to overtake the US by using other Hispanic immigrants. I don't believe this is true, I just think what drives you to join the "illegal immigration movement" is the fact that you are illegal, not that you are Mexican.

Attaching hate reasons to a specific group of people, such as the one proposed by radical movements on both sides of the coin will lead to nothing good.
I see more of the perception that illegal aliens "cut in line" from U.S. citizens rather than legal immigrants (they understand the system from being exposed to it). Your focus on excluding family-based immigration information ignores two-thirds of legal immigration, and their more closer representation of everyone of the group immigrating from Mexico to the United States. As for the origination of the topic, if someone feels the term "Hispanic" doesn't fit them, they are free to define themselves another way.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:35 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,867 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Where have you been? This is not the first time I have commented on the suspicions many now have toward Hispanics due to massive illegal immigration from Mexico. And, if you object to the conflation of Hispanic with Mexican, you can blame Hispanic IA profiteers such as La Raza, LULAC, MALDEF, et al. for propagating this myth to support their agenda. However, it cannot be denied that the majority of illegal aliens are so-called Hispanics, comprised primarily of Mexicans. So, naturally, when most people think of illegal aliens, Mexicans come to mind. Their sheer numbers, coupled with the fact that we now have more illegal aliens from Mexico than legal immigrants, has earned them that designation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Could you provide a cite for this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Good grief! How many times must I cite the same info? If you want more, it is readily available. GOOGLE!


Immigration - Times Topics - The New York Times


Report Details Growth in Illegal Migration
Thanks. I actually misinterpreted what you meant in the first post. I thought you were referring to gross numbers in the country, not the yearly rate. However, I believe those figures are no longer true as the amounts of illegal immigrants has slowed over the last few years.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I see more of the perception that illegal aliens "cut in line" from U.S. citizens rather than legal immigrants (they understand the system from being exposed to it). Your focus on excluding family-based immigration information ignores two-thirds of legal immigration, and their more closer representation of everyone of the group immigrating from Mexico to the United States. As for the origination of the topic, if someone feels the term "Hispanic" doesn't fit them, they are free to define themselves another way.
Obviously, you don’t know the legal immigrants I know. They are all outraged by the preferential treatment illegal aliens receive. They are particularly incensed by the idea of legalizing their status. They consider it a slap in the face.
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