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Old 07-15-2011, 06:00 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,593 times
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Companies like software development firms are in competition with the world's employees every day as well. I can go to a website and have people from all over the world enter bids on the price they would charge for a job I want done. Should we outlaw this as well?

I'm pretty sure this week I heard on the radio that Polaris moved a plant down to Mexico recently.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:28 PM
 
403 posts, read 281,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Please. Sales taxes? Pittance. Most illegal immigrants that have any children here will most likely eat up a lifetime of taxes paid IN to the system working unskilled labor in just a few years.

Gas tax, property tax (paid through rent), SS, payroll, you could even throw workman's comp in there too. "Most immigrants that have kids most likely eating up a lifetime of taxes" is Pure speculation for one thing and for another it's not sufficient justification to kick ALL illegal immigrants out, imo


No.

Our quotas, etc. are designated and designed for and should promote SUSTAINABLE growth.

Not according to the second paragraph in the summary of this report:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31352.pdf


Nice try, conflating free trade ideals with immigration enforcement and calling it "protectionism"!!

I'm not conflating anything. You explicitly stated that Illegal immigrants hurt American laborers by outcompeting them. You want to protect American workers from additional foreign competition. This is economically destructive.

See above. Assume an illegal immigrant family where the husband makes a generous $10/hour and has two kids. Those two kids (who should not and would not be "in the system" had their parents followed the rules) would for 18 years have the following:

Education - $5k - $10k/year EACH
WIC/Foodstamps
Medicaid
Earned Income Tax Credit

How much do you think a $10/hr employee pays in taxes a year, anyway?

This is an argument for sending some illegals back, not all.
I note you conveniently ignore the law in this instance when it makes your argument stronger to say the benefits provided to the legal citizen children of illegals are a cost incurred by the illegal parent. You also ignore future earning potential of the people the money is actually going to. Also $10 an hour can generate more tax revenue than you'd think depending upon how many hours they work.


My justification is that the laws of the United States exist to protect AMERICANS. Call me a populist if you'd like. At any rate, I have no moral, social, or economic obligation to take in the third world's refuse. Comprende?

This is a horribly prejudiced statement. If you think illegal immigrants equal third-world refuse then you've spent too much time reading CIS propaganda.

Oh, so to be concerned about protection of American resources and environment, I have to adopt a hippie open world perspective? Yours is a rather warped perspective. It's so frustrating when people do not fit into neat little ideological boxes, innit?

When did I say that you had to adopt any particular worldview? I was simply noting that anyone who really understands/ cares about environmental protection wouldn't mock someone who holds that view specifically because Environmental problems are so good at highlighting how meaningless the lines we've drawn designating our boundaries are. You can certainly hold a contrary view, but if you truly appreciate environmental protection you would at the very least respect that view. The fact that you don't suggests that your "environmental concerns" wrt illegal immigration are merely held as a convenient justification for your distaste of supposed third-world refuse.
This will probably be my last response as I will be drunk all weekend, cheers!
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:57 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
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Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
You're assuming your conclusion.



Who I "reach out to" is frankly none of your business. I mean, I know you're going to snap back with THE LAW SAYS IT IS. But that's not a justification (after all, you yourself were aghast at the suggestion that you believed THE LAW is inherently just).

Do you believe the government can tell businesses how they should operate better than actual business owners?



No, I don't want your tax dollars to pay for unwanted third world poor. I against most aspects of the welfare state.



I'm white, dude.
Then you're obviously fine with those businesses who would decide to "reach out to" only whites and never hire someone of another race. After all it's none of someone else's business, not the government's job.

Certainly if it's fine with you to discriminate against Americans, it must be fine to discriminate against just certain Americans.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:05 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
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Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
No, I don't want your tax dollars to pay for unwanted third world poor. I against most aspects of the welfare state.



I'm white, dude.
And you haven't eliminated the big government-free public schools, free food stamps, free Medicaid system yet to have this big no-government anarchy kind of paradise.

At the current time, you can bring in semi-trailer-loads of your cheapest labor possible but they are entitled to my money because they can bring their kids, have more kids and all are "entitled" to free schools, free food, even free housing if you don't decide to put them up in your garage.

Under your logic, then if you can bring in semi-trailer loads of ultra cheap illegals and dump the real cost of them on the taxpayers, then why couldn't I go buy me some slaves and I'll take care of them?

(And no I don't believe in slavery, just using an example)
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:06 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Certainly if it's fine with you to discriminate against Americans, it must be fine to discriminate against just certain Americans.
lol, being allowed to choose between Americans and non-Americans equals discrimination against Americans. CLEARLY.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:36 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
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Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol, being allowed to choose between Americans and non-Americans equals discrimination against Americans. CLEARLY.
Then you explain the difference.

Employer A despises Americans and chooses instead to hire only people from Mexico. In fact he's a racista but also likes the way they won't complain about no raises or the fact he's paying less than legal wages. He insists it's not up to the government to tell him who he can hire nor tell him what he must pay his workers.

Employer B likes only some Americans, just the white ones and hires only whites. Just like A he feels it's not up to the government to tell him who he can hire but he goes along with the minimum wage and tax laws.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:46 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Then you explain the difference.

Employer A despises Americans and chooses instead to hire only people from Mexico. In fact he's a racista but also likes the way they won't complain about no raises or the fact he's paying less than legal wages. He insists it's not up to the government to tell him who he can hire nor tell him what he must pay his workers.

Employer B likes only some Americans, just the white ones and hires only whites. Just like A he feels it's not up to the government to tell him who he can hire but he goes along with the minimum wage and tax laws.
...both of those dudes are discriminating.

The following two positions are consistent:

1. Everyone should be allowed to hire whomever if they are not discriminating.

2. Employers should be able to employ illegal immigrants if they feel it is prudent to do so.

The following two positions are also consistent:

1. Everyone should be allowed to discriminate as they please.

2. Employers should be able to employ illegal immigrants if they feel it is prudent to do so.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:50 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
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Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
...both of those dudes are discriminating.
Discrimination is against the law as is bringing in trailer loads of illegals to hire is against the law.

What of slavery? Why can't Employer C buy up slaves if he prefers the really cheap labor?

Well slavery is also against the law, just as bringing in illegals is.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:52 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Discrimination is against the law as is bringing in trailer loads of illegals to hire is against the law.

What of slavery? Why can't Employer C buy up slaves if he prefers the really cheap labor?

Well slavery is also against the law, just as bringing in illegals is.
Please resist the urge to type "it's illegal" as many times as you can in a row, as that's not what we're discussing right now.

My point was that allowing someone to hire illegal immigrants is not discriminating against Americans.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:56 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Please resist the urge to type "it's illegal" as many times as you can in a row, as that's not what we're discussing right now.

My point was that allowing someone to hire illegal immigrants is not discriminating against Americans.
But they are. They are often never even offering jobs to Americans but worse they have decided that illegals are the cheap little submissive peon type workers they want. And they have the opinion American workers are not.

That's exactly the reason they choose to hire illegals, a certain distain for legal workers who they stereotype as needing more money and better job conditions.
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