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Old 07-16-2011, 10:57 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
But they are. They are often never even offering jobs to Americans but worse they have decided that illegals are the cheap little submissive peon type workers they want. And they have the opinion American workers are not.

That's exactly the reason they choose to hire illegals, a certain distain for legal workers who they stereotype as needing more money and better job conditions.
How could you know these motives, exactly? I mean, if the illegals are doing the work cheaper or better, that's a reason to hire them. It's not discrimination.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:04 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,877,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
How could you know these motives, exactly? I mean, if the illegals are doing the work cheaper or better, that's a reason to hire them. It's not discrimination.
If they have a stereotype that illegals work better, and so discriminate for an ethnic group here illegally then how isn't it discrimination? A white supremist might decide that white Americans work better and decide to hire only whites.

But the real reason certain employers bring in trailer-loads of illegals is because they don't want to pay legal wages and job benefits like workman's comp and so on.

Also wages should be about supply and demand. If you can't find any Americans who want to work for you, then you need to offer some kind of higher wage or better job condition.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:07 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If they have a stereotype that illegals work better, and so discriminate for an ethnic group here illegally then how isn't it discrimination? A white supremist might decide that white Americans work better and decide to hire only whites.

But the real reason certain employers bring in trailer-loads of illegals is because they don't want to pay legal wages and job benefits like workman's comp and so on.
No, most illegals get legal wages, thanks for playing.

It's not a "stereotype" that illegals are working better. Employers would not hire anyone who is not working either better or cheaper. It's not discrimination to do that. Hiring illegal aliens because you don't like whites would be discrimination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Also wages should be about supply and demand. If you can't find any Americans who want to work for you, then you need to offer some kind of higher wage or better job condition.
That's not what supply and demand is, dude. Not allowing employers to hire a subset of workers is artificially limiting supply.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:27 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,877,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, most illegals get legal wages, thanks for playing.

It's not a "stereotype" that illegals are working better. Employers would not hire anyone who is not working either better or cheaper. It's not discrimination to do that. Hiring illegal aliens because you don't like whites would be discrimination.



That's not what supply and demand is, dude. Not allowing employers to hire a subset of workers is artificially limiting supply.
And allowing them to bring in unlimited numbers of foreign workers is artificially increasing supply -- yes it is about supply and demand.

If you need workers and are offering unimpressive wages, you won't get enough workers.

So then you up your wages and the job seekers show up. That's exactly what does drive up wages in a normal dynamic.

There is no evidence most illegals get legal wages - but they obviously get very low wages, and they eagerly grab up jobs with wages too low for anyone to live on. Minimum wage is legal but no one can support a family on it.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:37 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
And allowing them to bring in unlimited numbers of foreign workers is artificially increasing supply -- yes it is about supply and demand.
No.
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,240,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, most illegals get legal wages, thanks for playing.

It's not a "stereotype" that illegals are working better. Employers would not hire anyone who is not working either better or cheaper. It's not discrimination to do that. Hiring illegal aliens because you don't like whites would be discrimination.



That's not what supply and demand is, dude. Not allowing employers to hire a subset of workers is artificially limiting supply.
Then any body who hires an illegal alien need to go to jail.
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Old 07-16-2011, 03:01 PM
 
403 posts, read 281,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If they have a stereotype that illegals work better, and so discriminate for an ethnic group here illegally then how isn't it discrimination? A white supremist might decide that white Americans work better and decide to hire only whites.

But the real reason certain employers bring in trailer-loads of illegals is because they don't want to pay legal wages and job benefits like workman's comp and so on.

Also wages should be about supply and demand. If you can't find any Americans who want to work for you, then you need to offer some kind of higher wage or better job condition.
Employers are bringing them in now? I call BS. If they are it's a tiny minority of employers. Why would an employer take on all that additional risk when it's pretty easy to find illegal labor now. It's a nice attempt to subtly demonize the employers though.
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,240,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Employers are bringing them in now? I call BS. If they are it's a tiny minority of employers. Why would an employer take on all that additional risk when it's pretty easy to find illegal labor now. It's a nice attempt to subtly demonize the employers though.
People who hire ILLEGAL aliens ARE breaking the law and Im cool with calling em out.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:52 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 791,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Assumed nothing. It's truth.
Quote:
Americans compete with Americans, and when no competent or available labor can be found, THEN we reach out to other nations.
Right here you've assumed the conclusion. You're arbitrarily putting people in two classes, marking one inferior to the other, and then using that to arrive at your "unfair competition" judgement.

If we went back a few years and said that "in baseball, white people compete with white people, and when no competent white baseball players can be found, THEN we reach out to the coloreds" as a rationale behind an argument that "Jackie Robinson is unfairly competing in the baseball labor market," then that ALSO would be an invalid argument for the exact same reasons.


Quote:
Um, yes it is. Again, because you're actions and choices affect ME. Therefore, I get a say. If you want to live in anarcho-capitalist land, or whatever your "end game" is, may I suggest you start searching for same elsewhere.
The fact that you are affected isn't itself enough to demonstrate a compelling interest here. When the guy across the street from me decides to buy product from my competitor instead of me, that AFFECTS ME, so therefore, according to your argument, I should get a say in determining who he does business with?

Quote:
The government gets to tell you what a minimum wage is. They get to tell you what protections you must provide your employees, and the government gets to tell you that you that you cannot import underpaid pseudo slaves to work at your hypothetical business.
So a bunch of interventions justifies more interventions?

Note you didn't actually answer the question there, BTW.

Here it is again:

Quote:
Do you believe the government can tell businesses how they should operate better than actual business owners?
Don't give me a bunch of double talk about what the government already tells businesses to do. This is SPECIFICALLY about your claim (quoted above) that "we" only reach out to foreign labor when "we" can't find "competent or available" US labor. Is the government really BETTER and making the determination of which people and skills are right for the job than the individual business owners? This isn't about industry-wide best practices. This is about specific operational decisions.

Quote:
Well realize that your current position is EXACTLY leading to that.
Only if you accept some ridiculous premise that laws are unchangeable. But you obviously don't accept that since you're all worked up about changes I would be in favor of.

Quote:
Well, I've always said the ethnic sympathizers and wannabe cowboy libertarian capitalists make strange bedfellows.
I've always said empty platitudes make bad arguments.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:56 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 791,691 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Failure to grasp concept of "analogy" and "metaphor?" Really, this sort of thing should have been covered in elementary school.



What's the matter? Did you get fined for running an illegal immigrant flop house or something? You've got some amazing hangups in this regard.
The fact that you make a bad analogy isn't failure on my part to understand the analogy. The fact that pointing out how your analogy fails illicits nothing but schoolyard insults from you is very illuminating though.
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