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I crave no approval from sympathizers for illegal immigration, who I don't hold in high regard to begin with. Right up there with creationists, some thought cults are just not worth the time.
Right. And if you come here illegally, and drop a brood of five kids who become American, then I have to pay for them because of the technicality of the constitution. Whatever meager contribution an unskilled laborer makes in taxes or economic production will be erased with the birth of just one child, who will be fed, housed, and educated to the tune of THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars each year.
Yeah, it's the constitution and not our welfare system that needs to be changed.
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You also seem to be missing the point. In 1905, we didn't care that 5 families shared a tenement in New York, riddled with disease and sickness. Now, we do, and we want to make sure all people do not live in those conditions. What do we do then? We subsidize housing, and spend money ensuring that. And where we don't or can't, neighborhoods deteriorate, crime goes up, property values fall, and there is a degredation in quality of life.
coolstorybro - crime is down in every border state. Do you have any evidence to tie immigrants to the rest of your claims?
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As for "wage laws," I guess you don't understand how illegal labor is preferred among the shady, the morally bankrupt and the pseudo-slavers because illegal laborers have little to no recourse to demand federally mandated working conditions or wages. This creates a perpetual supply and demand for illegal labor. Changing all current "illegal" to "legal" will merely create a vacuum, and usher in NEW illegals to take their place.
Well golly gee, if we let them come in legally to work these things wouldn't happen. Also, immigration flows are tied to economic conditions. If there weren't jobs they wouldn't be coming. The numbers are down since the recession as a matter of fact.
I DO care WHO is saying X, Y, Z, because I automatically deduct 10 "rational and logical basis for argument" points from anyone who is motivated by sympathy based on tribalism.
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
The personal pressure some people on this board feel out of ethnic guilt/solidarity/identification can short circuit both critical thinking skills, and cause them to lose site of what is best "for THIS country" vs. what is best for the people from the "old country"
So you detract from people who make claims based on tribalism, but make openly tribalist statements. It would seem that you are not so much worried about tribalism, but the right kind of tribalism which begs the question what is your basis for excluding statements based on tribalism given you are doing the same thing?
It probably would be better for you to focus on the pros and cons of the statements, than a blind tribalistic rejection. It makes for a better, more honest conversation and ultimately it IS better for THIS country that people do so.
You can't do business with anyone you please. You certainly can't hire a six year old or a pedophile to work in a daycare center. Social security numbers are essential to help determine many aspects of employment in our society including taxes owed and benefits accrued. Anyone who makes one up is helping to destroy workplace protections that exist for a reason.
Why are you and your little friends so opposed to any sort of workplace protections? Or any limits on employers?
Excluding certain people from our workforce is not discrimination. Said people would not marginalized if they adhere to basic responsible norms in their own society such as not dropping out of high school and fathering children they cannot afford to support. It is unjust to hold Americans responsible for fixing their failures.
Americans do not owe high school drop outs from Mexico who don't speak English the right to come to our country and work under the table. Are there any laws you and your friends believe should be enforced at all? Or just those that benefit foreign nationals at American taxpayer expense?
They live in my country without permission. They have children and demand we feed them with food stamps.
It's hilarous that people are up in arms about talking about speeding and jaywalking when "all illegals are criminals" is brought up but you can't see the fallacy in conflating child labor into this discussion.
Obviously I know what the purpose of requiring social security numbers is. If you're actually concerned with preserving "workplace protection" and benefits then you should be IN FAVOR of making it MUCH EASIER for people to get REAL numbers. The current regime is what drives people to use bogus numbers.
As for discrimination, if excluding entire classes of people from legal employment isn't discrimination, what IS?
From wikipedia:
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Within sociology, 'discrimination' is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups. Moral philosophers have defined it as disadvantageous treatment or consideration.
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The United Nations stance on discrimination includes a statement that: "Discriminatory behaviors take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection."
How am I holding anyone responsible for fixing their failures? I'm not demanding that anyone give them a job. There are already people voluntarily offering jobs to them. Not out of some coerced obligation, but out of a voluntary desire to enter into a mutually beneficial relationship. One you seek to prevent from taking place when it's actually none of your business.
I agree, Americans don't OWE these people anything. So stop acting like that's what I'm saying.
Yeah, it's the constitution and not our welfare system that needs to be changed.
BOTH need to be changed.
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Originally Posted by huddledmasses
coolstorybro - crime is down in every border state. Do you have any evidence to tie immigrants to the rest of your claims?
"Coolstorybro" ... is that a popular saying among 15 year olds on gaming forums or something?
But oh yes, I have tons of empirical evidence in the barrio, bankrupt hospitals and overstretched school systems. Crime is down in every state, btw, but gang activity thrives in "high illegal immigration areas," and illegal immigrants are WAY overrepresented in prison populations.
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Originally Posted by huddledmasses
Well golly gee, if we let them come in legally to work these things wouldn't happen.
Utter fail to comprehend reality.
Opening the flood gates to "any and all who want to come" would put downward wage pressure, particularly in the unskilled trades, but also in blue collar professions.
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Originally Posted by huddledmasses
Also, immigration flows are tied to economic conditions. If there weren't jobs they wouldn't be coming. The numbers are down since the recession as a matter of fact.
Supply AND Demand need to be addressed. But at least I don't have to pay to educate and raise the eight children of a bean picker if said bean picker is never here in the first place.
Do you have a right to restrict entry into your home? Do you have the right to allow only invited guests and roommates into your home?
Should non-invited guests, looking for an upgrade in living conditions, be allowed to move into your home without your express consent or permission?
If not, why not? I'm sure you have plenty of space in your home to accomodate the needs of several third world immigrants. Would you allow a family to move into a spare bedroom without your permission? It would be unjust for you to deny them the opportunity, no?
A better question would be for you to ask me if I have a right to restrict entry into YOUR home.
Please explain why we owe anyone an easier path? Please explain why we should not be extremely selective about who we allow to enter. Just as i am selective about who I allow to enter my home we should be very conservative in our immigration policies.
The fact that we don't owe someone an "easier path" doesn't mean making it harder is justified.
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Lets face it. These illegals have already demonstrated 1 thing. Our laws are not relevent to their decision making. Not the best candidates.
Legal immigrants on the other hand have at least shown that our laws are a factor.
Do you have proof That these people would stop committing crimes? We can play the what if , could of, should of game all day long.
They have demonstrated their willingness to break a number of laws already. The burden is upon any immigrant to prove that they are worthy of the VISA. Thus far every illegal has demonstrated that they are anything but worthy of such a blessing.
Let's face it. We should banish all US citizen speeders and jaywalkers to siberia. They've demonstrated their willingness to break the law. Our laws are not relevant to their decision making. They are not the best candidates for participation in our society where the RULE OF LAW matters.
So you detract from people who make claims based on tribalism, but make openly tribalist statements.
It would seem that you are not so much worried about tribalism, but the right kind of tribalism which begs the question what is your basis for excluding statements based on tribalism given you are doing the same thing?
I see I must have hit a nerve. I don't know why you're so offended. The truth should never offend. Your willingness to dance around the truth and deem it "irrelevant" is a personal choice.
You see, my only tribal loyalty in this debate is to AMERICA and what is best for its people and the tax payers (I suppse, collectively, the "tribe" of Americans). Illegal immigration sympathizers automatically operate from a perspective of "what is best for illegal immigrants" - not what is best for this nation.
Why do we know this? Because we have already decided as a country that we want to restrict and limit immigration, both in numbers and in terms of the skills, health, etc. of the invited immigrants into this country. Illegals and sympathizers deign to believe that they know better than the experts and lawmakers who have put a lot of thought and effort into the endeavour of creating and enforcing immigration laws.
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Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning
It probably would be better for you to focus on the pros and cons of the statements, than a blind tribalistic rejection. It makes for a better, more honest conversation and ultimately it IS better for THIS country that people do so.
How about I do both? Not like I need your permission, but I will judge the credibility, bias and motives of any opinions presented on this board based on ANY criteria I see fit.
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