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Old 07-17-2011, 08:10 AM
 
1 posts, read 758 times
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:13 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
So ignoring a "very small subset of laws" doesn't make them criminal?

Breaking the law is criminal. You admit that they break the law. Yet you say that they are not criminal.

The real crime here is the education you received that caused this thinking by you.
I didn't say they're not criminal. You should re-read the argument a few times.

Though I do enjoy the irony of you misunderstanding that and in the same post insulting my intelligence.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 08:18 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Okay - to all the open borders types who insist we need illegals: Should they not be left illegal if we need illegals? What would be the point in legalizing them? That would only defeat the purpose in bringing this cheap labor in the first place.

No longer would they be the happy dirt-wage peons we supposedly need here.
I don't think the pro-immigration argument is that we "need illegals" but rather that we need IMMIGRANTS. The "we need illegals" is a nice strawman that makes for a good narrative, though.

If you really believe that waving a wand and making them legal would instantly make them demand the same wages as entitled americans, then you should be ALL FOR THAT since, according to your arguments, the only advantage illegals offer is their willingness to work for low prices. If that advantage disappeared, then nobody would want to hire them, right?
 
Old 07-17-2011, 08:22 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
How is refering to all illegals as criminals treating them as subhumans? I agree some radicals spout killem all rhetoric but not most or even many of the so called pro enforcement crowd.
How is holding them acountable for their crimes mistreating them?
The speeding analogy thats used so often. is it mistreatment to make the caught violater pay the posted fines?
What about legal citizens or residents caught commiting fraud or ID theft?
The real issue is some dont feel deportation fits the crime as a punishment inspite of the fact a legal VISA holder would more than likely be deported for any number of the crimes the average illegal commits. If one is to believe the restrictions and warnings given a person here on say a tourist VISA. Like working without the correct VISA or documentation.
What about operating a vehicle without a license or insurance?
Is it treating a legal Immigrant or VISA holder as subhuman?
Calling them criminals is not treating them as sub-human, and that's not what I said. I said it's used as a justification. Which it is.

Of course "enforcing laws" isn't in and of itself a mistreatment. But enforcing unjust laws is.

The fact that legal citizens face penalties for breaking laws isn't really very interesting, since I'm not advocating that illegals be given blanket immunity from any and all laws.

The fact that legal immigrants might get deported for doing X or Y isn't really interesting either, for similar reasons.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
That 27% figure is all foreign born people incarcerated, not illegal immigrants. Now, I'm still waiting for the methodology on how we determine which aren't legal after the illegal immigrants that are under ICE jurisdiction are accounted for.

That same link also estimates the illegal immigrant population at 10.8 million. You obviously don't believe that but hey let's twist info from the same study to make 27% foreign born equal the illegal immigrants somehow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
I'm not the one who made the outlandish claim that they would continue committing ID fraud and stuff if they could just legally sign up for a job and not have to use a fake id. If you want to continue to make this assumption I'm going to need to see a citation or something. A stat showing all the legal aliens committing ID fraud would suffice.

Huh, maybe you should l2read or something. Here I'll quote it again with the important word bolded. But since you brought it up, the Government Accountability Office report Benicar linked in this thread says it the number of illegals is approximately 10.8 million.

Please try to pay attention. OK?


Here you go failing at reading comprehension once again since I was specifically asking how many go back voluntarily after their visa expires vs. the ones that stay until they get caught.
The data does NOT include all “foreign-born.” It includes all “non-citizens” (legal and illegal). In case you don’t know, many citizens are foreign-born. Yes, the report is using the estimate of 10.8 million from the Census Bureau, which I believe to be grossly underestimated. However, you cannot compare an estimate based on actual prison records for non-citizens, with an estimate based on pure speculation.

The fact that at least 27% of our federal prison population is comprised of non-citizens, regardless of immigration status, is alarming. Not to mention, the billions spent annually for their incarceration. Your assertion is that few illegal aliens would commit crimes if granted legal status. Yet, you also argue that since the 27% estimate includes those here legally, we do not know what percentage are illegal aliens. You have, albeit unwittingly, debunked your own theory.

If, as you assume, the majority of the criminal aliens in our penal system are here legally, wouldn’t that indicate that one’s immigration status is not a significant causal factor for criminal behavior? And, wouldn’t that answer your question?

So, which is it? Are the majority of the 27% illegal aliens who commit crimes to remain in this country? Mind you, according to the data, in New York, homicide accounts for the majority of crimes committed by criminal aliens. In other states, drug offenses are high on the list. Neither of these would be considered offenses one would commit to simply work in this country. Or, are the majority legal aliens, which illegals would become if granted amnesty, who commit crimes simply because they’re criminals? You tell me.

Furthermore, if you believe the only crimes illegal aliens commit are ID theft and fraud, think again. And, this is just a snippet.


Crime victims of illegal aliens

http://www.darksideofillegalimmigration.com/page6.html (broken link)

CRIME VICTIMS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS


‪Crime Victims Of Illegal Aliens‬‏ - YouTube
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Calling them criminals is not treating them as sub-human, and that's not what I said. I said it's used as a justification. Which it is.

Of course "enforcing laws" isn't in and of itself a mistreatment. But enforcing unjust laws is.

The fact that legal citizens face penalties for breaking laws isn't really very interesting, since I'm not advocating that illegals be given blanket immunity from any and all laws.

The fact that legal immigrants might get deported for doing X or Y isn't really interesting either, for similar reasons.
Sub-human? Don’t make me laugh. Illegal aliens are not treated as sub-human. In fact, this country has been more than generous considering the fact that they are here in violation of our laws. Now, had they been treated like black citizens prior to the passage of the Civil Rights Act, and were denied even the most basis human dignity as others, such as drinking from the same water fountain, using the same bathroom, swimming in the same pool, eating at the same restaurant, lodging at the same hotel, attending the same schools, the list goes on. . . . Then, you would have a valid point.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:53 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sub-human? Don’t make me laugh. Illegal aliens are not treated as sub-human.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCar Willie View Post
I agree!! They should be taken to a secluded area and shot in the head and buried in a deep hole!!
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post




Nice try. But, one comment does not equal sub-human treatment by the citizens and government of this country. Try again.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,395 posts, read 8,349,307 times
Reputation: 7679
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well -- after all the illegal stealing the cars was only trying to improve himself, get ahead in life.
Correctamundo.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 10:05 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Nice try. But, one comment does not equal sub-human treatment by the citizens and government of this country. Try again.
There's plenty more. But in actuality, since you brought it up, if you're claiming X doesn't happen, then yes, one instance of it DOES invalidate your claim.
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