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Old 07-17-2011, 11:07 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 514,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Nice try. But, one comment does not equal sub-human treatment by the citizens and government of this country. Try again.
lol, citizens and government? We're talking about the people on this board.

 
Old 07-17-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 10,273,122 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
There's plenty more. But in actuality, since you brought it up, if you're claiming X doesn't happen, then yes, one instance of it DOES invalidate your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol, citizens and government? We're talking about the people on this board.
Again, your claim that illegals are treated as sub-human lacks merit. Comments on an internet forum are opinions, and have no bearing on the “treatment” of illegal aliens in this country. They are not treated as sub-human, and any attempt to claim otherwise, will fail each and every time.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 11:39 AM
 
951 posts, read 313,804 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The data does NOT include all “foreign-born.” It includes all “non-citizens” (legal and illegal). In case you don’t know, many citizens are foreign-born.
Considering you first tried calling ALL 27% illegal this is funny but ok.

Quote:
Yes, the report is using the estimate of 10.8 million from the Census Bureau, which I believe to be grossly underestimated. However, you cannot compare an estimate based on actual prison records for non-citizens, with an estimate based on pure speculation.
Cherry pick those stats that suit you! Intellectual honesty at it's worst. We'll get back to this.

Quote:
The fact that at least 27% of our federal prison population is comprised of non-citizens, regardless of immigration status, is alarming. Not to mention, the billions spent annually for their incarceration. Your assertion is that few illegal aliens would commit crimes if granted legal status. Yet, you also argue that since the 27% estimate includes those here legally, we do not know what percentage are illegal aliens. You have, albeit unwittingly, debunked your own theory.
Debunked what theory? I'm not the one that said illegal aliens are over represented in our prison. I just provided links stating otherwise. Please try to pay attention.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p03.pdf

This report shows that 1.6% of all prisoners in prison are under ICE control and illegal. Tinman or someone tried to claim that not all illegals are under ICE jurisdiction and I'm still waiting on how you guys are figuring that out. The only attempt so far was a footnote of a CIS study leading to an unpublished study. Instead of answering that question you link costs/scary videos etc.

Also, no one has shown that the incarceration rate of aliens is more than citizens either.

I posted:

Quote:
Among men age 18-39 (who comprise the vast majority of the prison population), the 3.5 percent incarceration rate of the native-born in 2000 was 5 times higher than the 0.7 percent incarceration rate of the foreign-born.
from: NICIC.gov: The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates Among Native and Foreign-Born Men

Now, this was based on population figures of the 2000 census that you are all scared of but you see here the fact that there may be millions more immigrants than the census counted would just mean that the incarceration rate of aliens IS EVEN LOWER. Do you want to go with that 10.8ish million number of illegals now or should we use the 30 million figure?

Last edited by huddledmasses; 07-17-2011 at 11:50 AM..
 
Old 07-17-2011, 11:39 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 514,645 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Again, your claim that illegals are treated as sub-human lacks merit. Comments on an internet forum are opinions, and have no bearing on the “treatment” of illegal aliens in this country. They are not treated as sub-human, and any attempt to claim otherwise, will fail each and every time.
That's not the claim.

The claim is that people on this forum go out of their way to characterize illegals in such a way that allows them to be portrayed as less than human.

I mean, imagine any other topic where some group is being discussed. That groups members committed a crime that inherently affects no one else and in practice, at worst, is a financial drain the produces the same problems that native poor populations do. Imagine that someone came out and suggested summary execution for those people. What would the response be? Here it was (I believe malamute) saying, in essence, "well that's a little strong." There was no outcry. If someone said "poor Americans should be executed," that thread would explode with outrage. And rightly so. So maybe you should ponder why that didn't happen.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 10,273,122 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Considering you first tried calling ALL 27% illegal this is funny but ok.

Cherry pick those stats that suit you! Intellectual honesty at it's worst. We'll get back to this.

Debunked what theory? I'm not the one that said illegal aliens are over represented in our prison. I just provided links stating otherwise. Please try to pay attention.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p03.pdf

This report shows that 1.6% of all aliens in prison are under ICE control. Tinman or someone tried to claim that not all illegals are under ICE jurisdiction and I'm still waiting on how you guys are figuring that out. Instead of answering that you link costs/scary videos etc.

Also, no one has shown that the incarceration rate of aliens is more than citizens either.

I posted:



from: NICIC.gov: The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates Among Native and Foreign-Born Men

Now, this was based on population figures of the 2000 census that you are all scared of but you see here the fact that there may be millions more immigrants than the census counted would just mean that the incarceration rate of aliens IS EVEN LOWER. Do you want to go with that 10.8ish million number now or should we use the 30 million figure?
Still grasping at straws. Did you not state that if illegal aliens were granted legal status they would commit less crime? And, did you also not imply that the majority of the “criminal aliens” are most likely legal? You can’t have it both ways. Either legal aliens commit less crime than illegal aliens, or they don’t.

Until we have a clear delineation of our “non-citizen” prison population, we cannot determine the percentage of legal vs. illegal aliens in our prisons. Regardless, 27% is staggering. So, perhaps we don’t need to legalize illegal aliens, if legalization will not reduce crime. Or, are the majority illegal aliens? Who knows?

Given that the government only recently began to maintain records on our “non-citizen” prison population, we have no idea what the true percentage of “criminal aliens” is vis-a-vis their total population, whatever that may be.

If the linked report is outdated, please provide an update.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 12:06 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 261,451 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Still grasping at straws. Did you not state that if illegal aliens were granted legal status they would commit less crime? And, did you also not imply that the majority of the “criminal aliens” are most likely legal? You can’t have it both ways. Either legal aliens commit less crime than illegal aliens, or they don’t.
What? Of course you can. EVEN IF illegals commit crime at a higher rate than legals making them legal would STILL decrease the amount of crime the do commit, since they would no longer be committing the "crimes" the commit just by virtue of being here and working. How can this be disputed?
 
Old 07-17-2011, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 10,273,122 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
That's not the claim.

The claim is that people on this forum go out of their way to characterize illegals in such a way that allows them to be portrayed as less than human.

I mean, imagine any other topic where some group is being discussed. That groups members committed a crime that inherently affects no one else and in practice, at worst, is a financial drain the produces the same problems that native poor populations do. Imagine that someone came out and suggested summary execution for those people. What would the response be? Here it was (I believe malamute) saying, in essence, "well that's a little strong." There was no outcry. If someone said "poor Americans should be executed," that thread would explode with outrage. And rightly so. So maybe you should ponder why that didn't happen.
Again, there is a huge difference between individual comments and actual treatment. However, how is the referenced comment deemed offensive, or a depiction of people in a sub-human manner, while it is considered perfectly acceptable for pro-illegals to constantly accuse every person opposed to illegal immigration of being Nazis, racists, bigots, xenophobes, haters, etc? Why is it only sub-human treatment when expressed by an anti-illegal, but somehow acceptable when pro-illegals denigrate their opposition?
 
Old 07-17-2011, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 10,273,122 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
What? Of course you can. EVEN IF illegals commit crime at a higher rate than legals making them legal would STILL decrease the amount of crime the do commit, since they would no longer be committing the "crimes" the commit just by virtue of being here and working. How can this be disputed?
And, what proof do you have that they will not continue to commit ID theft, fraud, rape, murder, robbery, drug trafficking, DUIs, etc? After all, these are their primary crimes. Moreover, what punishment should they receive for these crimes prior to their legalization? Or, should we simply absolve them of guilt, and wish them a happy life as a legal resident?
 
Old 07-17-2011, 12:18 PM
 
951 posts, read 313,804 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Still grasping at straws. Did you not state that if illegal aliens were granted legal status they would commit less crime?
I'm pretty sure it is you grasping at anything you can. I said they wouldn't commit ID fraud and SS number theft, crimes that they commit to get work. You still haven't shown any case stating otherwise, just some scary videos that have little to do with the topic being discussed.

Also, first you failed and said 27% were illegal, since you were called on that it's now just scary that there are 27%, legal or illegal. You still have no answer on figuring how illegals could not be under ICE jurisdiction which states that 1.6% of the prison population are illegal. You can't link to any thing that tells us how to figure this but still try to claim there are more illegals in the prison system somehow. You have no explanation for incarceration rate differences which would get even bigger if we went with your estimate of 30 million illegals in the country. In other words: durrrrrrrrrr.......
 
Old 07-17-2011, 12:22 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 1,259,021 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
That's not the claim.

The claim is that people on this forum go out of their way to characterize illegals in such a way that allows them to be portrayed as less than human.

I mean, imagine any other topic where some group is being discussed. That groups members committed a crime that inherently affects no one else and in practice, at worst, is a financial drain the produces the same problems that native poor populations do. Imagine that someone came out and suggested summary execution for those people. What would the response be? Here it was (I believe malamute) saying, in essence, "well that's a little strong." There was no outcry. If someone said "poor Americans should be executed," that thread would explode with outrage. And rightly so. So maybe you should ponder why that didn't happen.
Why do you and your little friends keep denying that illegal immigration has consequences? Illegal immigration hurts our society in many ways including educationally, fiscally and environmentally. Comparing their decision to immigrate with our poverty stricken peoples is ridiculous. We have a responsibility to our poor people that we do not have to every poor person in the world. To claim otherwise is to single out a handful of Americans and place insane burdens on them and them alone.

The only people who dehumanize illegals are you and your fellow illegal advocates. You refuse to hold them responsible for their own behavior and thus utterly infantilize them. Americans should learn Spanish but illegals have no responsibility to learn English. Illegals can seek a better life for themselves for Americans cannot protest when that seeking hurts them lest they be declared racists. Illegals can disobey laws if the laws hurt them but Americans can never change the laws to hurt illegals. La Raza and Latino advocacy for illegals are okay but protests against identity politics are racist.

You turn adults into children who simply aren't capable of adhering to basic social norms including obeying laws. That's highly insulting to them.
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