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Old 07-15-2011, 09:10 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Good grief! No wonder your country is besieged with these cretins who won't observe your constitution when you yourself won't even defend the thing!

You are prepared to equate the criminality (tenuous at best) of speeding, to illegal aliens stealing identities of your citizens?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you seriously believe laws against people from foreign countries entering to take advantage of your largess are pointless and unfair?

This attitude is beyond my understanding and I'm not ashamed to admit it while not even being a citizen of your country.
I didn't start this "they're all criminals" blanket statement nonsense. The point is to show how ridiculous such blanket statements are. Some one to use the fact that "they're all criminals" as justification for treating them as sub-human, but they're ignoring the fact that pretty much every "real" american US citizen is ALSO "a criminal" in that everyone has broken a law at one point or another.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:17 AM
 
403 posts, read 280,717 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Good grief! No wonder your country is besieged with these cretins who won't observe your constitution when you yourself won't even defend the thing!

You are prepared to equate the criminality (tenuous at best) of speeding, to illegal aliens stealing identities of your citizens?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you seriously believe laws against people from foreign countries entering to take advantage of your largess are pointless and unfair?

This attitude is beyond my understanding and I'm not ashamed to admit it while not even being a citizen of your country.
There are people who come here illegally who are not attempting to take advantage of our social programs. Can you see how someone would consider the laws being unjust to those individuals?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:20 AM
 
403 posts, read 280,717 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Well you are not alone. Many of us struggle with the excuses made by the pro-illegal crowd.
I myself who is in fact married to a legal immigrant can not fathom the logic of just allowing any and all to enter.
This is a strawman. I don't know one person who is in favor of creating a path to legal citizenship for illegal immigrants or reforming the immigration standards to make it easier for people to get in here who have ever advocated allowing any and all people to enter.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
There are people who come here illegally who are not attempting to take advantage of our social programs. Can you see how someone would consider the laws being unjust to those individuals?
You have not explained how it is unjust to have immigration laws that decide who may enter and who may not?
You have not explained why it is that you feel we owe a VISA to anyone who wants a VISA.
Furthermore given the fact that this nation allows more immigration than all others combined, can you explain why we need to allow even more?
Last but not least. Why do we owe illegals the majority of whom have never even attempted to apply for a VISA a free pass?
So what is unjust about having standards and laws?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:29 AM
 
16,739 posts, read 9,472,016 times
Reputation: 12136
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I didn't start this "they're all criminals" blanket statement nonsense. The point is to show how ridiculous such blanket statements are. Some one to use the fact that "they're all criminals" as justification for treating them as sub-human, but they're ignoring the fact that pretty much every "real" american US citizen is ALSO "a criminal" in that everyone has broken a law at one point or another.
Whoa big fellah!

Let's start with the criminal aspect first and then deal with the humanitarian aspect after we establish if illegal aliens are; or are not "criminals".

My understanding may be off here but, if they are in the country illegally as in "illegal aliens"; does this not make them 'criminals' by default?

The formality of actually prosecuting them and sentencing aside; because you haven't rounded them all up and put them through the court process doesn't mitigate the fact that upwards of 11 million of them are breaking the laws imposed by your founding fathers, and subsequent duly elected representatives and are thus "criminals". Agreed?

"Treating them as sub-human": This one is far easier to deal with. How is taking them to task for breaking your laws and categorizing them verbally deemed sub-human? Were you ever called a less than flattering name while going through that great morale builder known as the "public school system"? I mean c'mon now; did you characterise this as being sub-human treatment?

Your point is not made adequately to pass any litmus test of "rediculous" but rather shows the problem with the political correctness permeating the vote greedy times we are now in.

Laws are being broken that would deem them to be criminals but instead they are given a pass whereas, you yourself have postulated a case that like 'speeding' they should be given a ticket just as any other law breaker and hence be deemed a criminal. Yes or no?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
This is a strawman. I don't know one person who is in favor of creating a path to legal citizenship for illegal immigrants or reforming the immigration standards to make it easier for people to get in here who have ever advocated allowing any and all people to enter.
Ah but the pro side seems to over look the fact that the majority of illegals have entered with no background checks and no attempt to apply for a VISA.
Yet you want them granted a free pass.
Yours is the strawman. Either we use a system to regulate immigration in a controled manner that reflects the needs of this nation or we dont.
Your side seems to believe that we owe it to just about anyone the right to enter.
Yes you can say anyone but violent felons. I would agree with you to a point.
I would say anyone who can demonstrate that they have skills we need and the finacial stability to prove they wont become a burdon upon this country.
We dont owe a VISA to anyone. We shouldnt be made to feel guilty because we deny a VISA to an individual. Even if they are a nice person and an honest person. If they can't support themselves here without being a burdon then we dont need them.
Lastly we dont need individuals who feel they can pick and chose which laws they agree with and simply ignore those they dont.
As you have pointed out numerous times. Everyone has jaywalked, or broke a speed limit. But not everyone goes on to commit fraud, ID theft and tax evasion.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:32 AM
 
951 posts, read 616,596 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You have not explained how it is unjust to have immigration laws that decide who may enter and who may not?
You have not explained why it is that you feel we owe a VISA to anyone who wants a VISA.
Noone has said every single person on this planet should be allowed to enter. Quit strawmanning.

Quote:
Furthermore given the fact that this nation allows more immigration than all others combined, can you explain why we need to allow even more?
This fact doesn't mean we are allowing in the optimum amount. Try again.

Quote:
Last but not least. Why do we owe illegals the majority of whom have never even attempted to apply for a VISA a free pass?
Citation needed. Like half are visa overstays lolz.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:33 AM
 
951 posts, read 616,596 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Everyone has jaywalked, or broke a speed limit. But not everyone goes on to commit fraud, ID theft and tax evasion.
Hey, if you have any proof that these people would continue to commit these crimes if they were given an easier legal option to enter and work I'm willing to read it. I don't think you do though. You just like to generalize and make **** up.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:38 AM
 
403 posts, read 280,717 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You have not explained how it is unjust to have immigration laws that decide who may enter and who may not?
You have not explained why it is that you feel we owe a VISA to anyone who wants a VISA.
Furthermore given the fact that this nation allows more immigration than all others combined, can you explain why we need to allow even more?
Last but not least. Why do we owe illegals the majority of whom have never even attempted to apply for a VISA a free pass?
So what is unjust about having standards and laws?
1) Generally speaking, immigration laws aren't necessarily unjust.
2) I never said we owe a VISA to anyone who wanted one.
3) Because current immigration laws are preventing many people from legally coming here, in an efficient manner, who I believe are beneficial to our society effectively forcing them to seek illegal entry. A perfect example of this was the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist whose story was posted in this forum not too long ago.
4) Who said the pass has to be free?
5) In the general sense, nothing.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 09:41 AM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,287,998 times
Reputation: 6451
Wow do not feel so bad, i guess all States has their idiots, and what a idiot he is.
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