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Old 07-15-2011, 12:40 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,593 times
Reputation: 89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
This is a strawman of all strawman arguments. It can be used for every single crime committed.
Speeding wouldn't be illegal if we didnt have speed limits.
More people would die as a result of course but at least no laws would be broken.
As for right to tell you what you do on your property.
strawman argument again.
We are told by just about every level of gov what we can and cant do on our property. Starting with zoning laws.
For example on my property I am not allowed more than 1 unlicensed vehicle to be parked on it.
I can not put a trailor or mobile home on my property.
I cannot build an shed or garage without a permit.
I can not have a party outside after 11 pm.
I must mow my lawn
I must keep my property in good repair
I am not allowed to harbor fugitives
There is nothing but regulations about what I can and cant do on my property

Do you know what a straw man is? I'm pretty sure my stance since entering this forum has been to allow easier legal options for entry so that millions aren't forced to enter illegally.

Speaking of straw men, let's clear something up. I'm I'm pro-immigration reform, not pro-illegal immigrants. You make it sound like I'm cheering them on at the border with a table of water glasses or something.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:41 PM
 
148 posts, read 66,792 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Wink wink?

How can it be any more explicit? Do you need me to draw you a picture?

The most vocal supporters of illegal immigration are those who share common ethnic bonds with populations over-represented in illegal immigration.

My father is an immigrant. However, there is very little illegal immigration with people from his country. I am therefore free of ethnic guilt to make excuses for what is obviously detrimental to the United States because I'm afraid of being called a Tio Tomas, Banana, or sell-out to my people.
All of which is completely irrelevant to anything discussed in the thread. No one cares WHO is saying X, Y, Z, but the pros and cons of the statements themselves. You would think people would afford you that respect regardless of your ethnicity. The least you could do is the same.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:42 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
What rights of yours are being violated?
The right to not have to live with, support, or subsidize people who have not gone through the proper channels to be entitled to same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses
coolstorybro - I suppose I can't set up crack dens, prostitution houses, etc. either but I'm not talking slaves. I'm talking about renting to people here to work.
Awww, are you mad because code enforcement puts a cramp on your aspirations to be a slum lord? I am gathering some wood for you right now to build a bridge over that river tears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses
Yeah well at one time we welcomed the poverty stricken here as a gesture of what America is supposed to stand for. Did they ruin America?
"At one time" --- yes, once upon a time, when we didn't care about or have things like:

1) Universal Education
2) Housing assistance
3) Social Security
4) WIC/Foodstamps/Welfare
5) Guaranteed Health Coverage
6) Employment and Wage Laws and Guarantees
7) Housing Standards

You have a choice:

1) modern nation with a functioning safety net, committed to eradicating poverty and maintaining a standard of living goal for all people within its borders, or

2) America circa 1895.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:44 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,593 times
Reputation: 89
Well, we don't allow non-citizens welfare, only their children who are U.S. citizens. It sounds like you want to discuss our welfare system. I am fine with changing that as well. I'm curious how they will effect housing standards and wage laws lol. Also, educating people to become productive contributors to our economy and society is bad?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:47 PM
 
16,812 posts, read 9,530,661 times
Reputation: 12187
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
wat? So are you going to actually provide proof of your bogus claims that they will continue to commit crimes or just hand wave the whole issue away because you got called on it?
Your method of calling people out is more than just a litttle suspect with posing a question that is impossible to answer until it actually happens to become a reality. Which ain't likely!

You're conveniently forgetting that part of "continue to commit crimes". We've already established they're criminals so why would it be unreasonable to assume they will continue that trend regardless if they magicly become legal overnight?

Your justice system provides protection for your society on the belief it has a right to be protected from crimes -period! It doesn't specify that crimes of convenience like a Lindsay Lohan forgetting to pay for a necklace are exempt so let's say they've entered illegally AND they've availed themselves of a benefit (education, medical, driver's license) illegally AND they've foregone the process of filing with IRS, would you then agree they've sort of "shot their bolt" so to speak?

Why aren't you displaying all of this moral outrage for any other cretin who has broken the law or is it just because you enjoy all this too-&-fro for the entertainment value?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:47 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalReasoning View Post
All of which is completely irrelevant to anything discussed in the thread. No one cares WHO is saying X, Y, Z, but the pros and cons of the statements themselves. I afford you that respect regardless of your ethnicity. The least you could do is the same.

I DO care WHO is saying X, Y, Z, because I automatically deduct 10 "rational and logical basis for argument" points from anyone who is motivated by sympathy based on tribalism.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:48 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,032 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
I DO care WHO is saying X, Y, Z, because I automatically deduct 10 "rational and logical basis for argument" points from anyone who is motivated by sympathy based on tribalism.
Which in turn actually loses you 20 points.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:51 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,593 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Your method of calling people out is more than just a litttle suspect with posing a question that is impossible to answer until it actually happens to become a reality. Which ain't likely!

You're conveniently forgetting that part of "continue to commit crimes". We've already established they're criminals so why would it be unreasonable to assume they will continue that trend regardless if they magicly become legal overnight?
Well, since the crimes they commit are to facilitate their entry into American and then the work place, logic would lead you to the conclusion that if they didn't have to commit these crimes in the first place they wouldn't occur.

Again, do you have any proof that these people would continue to obtain fake SS numbers, etc. if they were able to enter and work legally?

How many legal immigrants are committing these same crimes btw?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,923,670 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Do you know what a straw man is? I'm pretty sure my stance since entering this forum has been to allow easier legal options for entry so that millions aren't forced to enter illegally.

Speaking of straw men, let's clear something up. I'm I'm pro-immigration reform, not pro-illegal immigrants. You make it sound like I'm cheering them on at the border with a table of water glasses or something.
A straw man basically is a misrepresentation of facts used to negate anothers position.
The if we made it leagal argument is lame at best. The fact that it was illegal and the individual disregarded the law invites accountability. If caught speeding you pay a fine and your insurance goes up.
If caught speeding while in possesion of a controled substance invites jail time.
To say after the fact that if we didnt have a speed limit and and the substance was legal then the individual would not be a criminal is a lame argument.

I make no assumptions about what your beliefs are. To be honest I enjoy the debate with you. You seldom make it or turn it into a personal attack. I try to do the same.
Are you pro_illegal? Your arguments would indicate that your less than pro-enforcement.
Am I anti-immigrant? No I am married to a legal immigrant and we are doing our best to get my step daughter here legally.
We didnt read enough and waited for her to finish college before applying. Our mistake.
My dog in this fight. Illegals have demonstrated that they are less worthy of a VISA and a path to citizenship than those who are doing it the right way. It really is that simple. Also illegals should go to the end of the line and do it the right way before they can enter this country. That means self deport.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:53 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Well, we don't allow non-citizens welfare, only their children who are U.S. citizens. It sounds like you want to discuss our welfare system. I am fine with changing that as well. I'm curious how they will effect housing standards and wage laws lol. Also, educating people to become productive contributors to our economy and society is bad?
Right. And if you come here illegally, and drop a brood of five kids who become American, then I have to pay for them because of the technicality of the constitution. Whatever meager contribution an unskilled laborer makes in taxes or economic production will be erased with the birth of just one child, who will be fed, housed, and educated to the tune of THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars each year.

You also seem to be missing the point. In 1905, we didn't care that 5 families shared a tenement in New York, riddled with disease and sickness. Now, we do, and we want to make sure all people do not live in those conditions. What do we do then? We subsidize housing, and spend money ensuring that. And where we don't or can't, neighborhoods deteriorate, crime goes up, property values fall, and there is a degredation in quality of life.

As for "wage laws," I guess you don't understand how illegal labor is preferred among the shady, the morally bankrupt and the pseudo-slavers because illegal laborers have little to no recourse to demand federally mandated working conditions or wages. This creates a perpetual supply and demand for illegal labor. Changing all current "illegal" to "legal" will merely create a vacuum, and usher in NEW illegals to take their place.
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