Illegal Aliens vs Illegal Immigrants vs Undocumented (American, fence, working)

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rhymetime

The fact that government tells people what to do isn't justification for telling people what to do.

And not all cases of telling people what to do (via law) are equal. There are significant distinctions.

Restricting movement of criminals is qualitatively different than pre-emptively restricting the movement of people who aren't criminals until they move somewhere you tell them not to go to.

Restricting people from entering private property is different as well. If you want to control access to your swimming pool, then go ahead, I support you. These sorts of immigration controls, however, are effectively YOU (and other people) telling ME who I can invite to MY swimming pool. Because YOU don't like them.

People doing business with drug dealers is actually a pretty good analogy, however. And yes, I think laws restricting those sorts of transactions are unjust. It's none of your business if someone else wants to smoke some weed. If you don't like it, don't smoke it.

Chop shops are different because you're talking about selling someone else's property without their consent.

Once again you dont answer the question. What makes immigration laws unjust?
Without control you have chaos. Who should be allowed to enter who shouldnt?
Do we allow anyone except criminals? Why do we ban them? maybe they have no intent to do crime here?
The drug dealer. If only it were only weed. Crack ,Meth, Heroine etc sooner or later become the publics problem.
How immigration relates to my property.
Its the function of the fed to keep the nation secure. We control who enters not only to prtect us from would be terrorists but also criminals. Also those who would become a burdon upon the state. The fed is supposed to act in this nations best interests.
We talk about competitive wages as if those savings are passed on to the consumer which is questionable.
Why do we have trade treaties?
I dont like paying taxes. many are unjust. but if I dont pay I face the consequences.

[rhymetime]

Originally Posted by Woof

Not so. An illegal doesn't dare to challenge dangerous working conditions (such as unregulated spraying of pesticides). After all, he would be deported if he did, and the employer wouldn't likely get any punishment - maybe a small fine at the most.

No, the money saved by NOT paying unemployment insurance, overtime, safe working conditions, taxes, etc is very substantial, maybe more than the pay. We as a nation have the right to maintain basic standards even if an employer doesn't like them, so that we all have better lives. After all, we don't want to end up as a libertarian paradise like Mexico! I repeat that using illegals means that employers can violate those basic standards without fear of getting caught breaking the law.

By the way, all laws are backed up by government force. Laws have to be enFORCEd, or else they are just suggestions.

The emphasis should be on cracking down on employers who hire illegals, not the workers themselves. If all employers are forced to not hire them, than all employers will be on the same footing and competitive with each other, rather than some getting a huge break on costs by violating the law.

If your complaints are employers cutting corners and getting a leg up on people who follow the rules, then there's a super-simple solution.

Spoiler

Legalize all those workers.

[rhymetime]

Originally Posted by tinman01

Once again you dont answer the question. What makes immigration laws unjust?
Without control you have chaos. Who should be allowed to enter who shouldnt?
Do we allow anyone except criminals? Why do we ban them? maybe they have no intent to do crime here?
The drug dealer. If only it were only weed. Crack ,Meth, Heroine etc sooner or later become the publics problem.
How immigration relates to my property.
Its the function of the fed to keep the nation secure. We control who enters not only to prtect us from would be terrorists but also criminals. Also those who would become a burdon upon the state. The fed is supposed to act in this nations best interests.
We talk about competitive wages as if those savings are passed on to the consumer which is questionable.
Why do we have trade treaties?
I dont like paying taxes. many are unjust. but if I dont pay I face the consequences.

What made Jim Crow laws unjust? After all, those were simply about control.

[rhymetime]

Originally Posted by tinman01

The drug dealer. If only it were only weed. Crack ,Meth, Heroine etc sooner or later become the publics problem.

BTW, people said the same stuff about booze during prohibition when gangsters controlled that market.

[zacatecana]

Originally Posted by Benicar

My objection is not to one’s right to use a particular term. Rather, to their dishonesty. Again, you are free to use any term you choose. After all, in the U.S. we are entitled to freedom of speech. However, when you use a term such as anti-immigrant, or when the term “immigrant” rather than illegal immigrant/alien is used to describe foreign interlopers, then, yes, it is annoying. They are here illegally, and a distinction should be made.

Sorry but I don't get your analogies.

I understand how you feel but the bottom line is you will not be able to change anyone. They will choose whatever term they wish to use and as long as its not in violation of TOS, I don't think you should be concerned about it. These terms are very well used outside of the forum by experts on both sides. This is just a forum. As I said, lets discuss the bigger issues instead of derailing threads.

[zacatecana]

Originally Posted by malamute

Well not all illegals intend to remain here forever, some actually decide at some point to return home, they were only here to get a little financially ahead and were more like illegal guest workers.

Really? How is this related to the OP? As usual...

Your answer is like me telling you today's forecast when you ask what do you want to do with the millions here...


TOPIC:

Illegal Immigrant, Illegal Alien or Undocumented Worker?

[Lithium]

In passing I'll say "illegal immigrants" but I don't know if I stand behind it. I can't look at this as an American, just as a person. I don't know how I feel about the imaginary borders and the integrity of the laws...

[zacatecana]

Originally Posted by Benicar

If a stranger took your car without your permission, you wouldn’t call them an “unauthorized borrower.” You would call them a car thief, because that is exactly what they are. Likewise, no one in their right mind would call a rapist a “lover” because lover implies consent, and rape is certainly not consensual sex. The same applies to non-citizens. They are either authorized to be here (legal), or they are here in violation of our laws (illegal). There is no gray area, and only the desperate and/or disingenuous attempt to blur the lines.

You would be surprised that these terms are well known around the world. In Mexico, they are called immigrants and undocumented.

Federal police found 104 undocumented.

PF localiza a 104 indocumentados - El Universal - Nación

"Promoting Respect to Immigrants". This article is about how illegal immigrants in Mexico are often kidnapped. The government is offering more protection.

Promueven respeto a migrantes en Veracruz - El Universal - Los Estados

Here is one from Spain...

que las redadas contra inmigrantes sin papeles y motivadas por el aspecto físico son habituales en la zona.

the raids against immigrants without papers were motivated by...

Prensaescrita.com

From the UK news: There are an estimated 60,000 undocumented immigrants on the islands, making up a third of the population.

Mayotte moves to modernity | World news | Guardian Weekly

So if this term is well known and commonly used around the world, why do you choose to pick a fight about it in a forum?

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rhymetime

What made Jim Crow laws unjust? After all, those were simply about control.

You still have not answered the question. What makes our immigration laws unjust?
Jim crow laws were unjust because they singled out US citizens based on race.
Our immigration laws do no such thing.
The question can be asked then why the focus on hispanics?
And it can be answered because the vast majority of illegals are hispanics.
Would it be more effective to devote an equal amount of resourses guarding against illegals from Iceland?

[chicagonut]

Originally Posted by plwhit

Last time I looked all countries have laws that restrict access.... So I guess all countries are arrogant.....

Of course it's an invitation..... but to knowingly hire an illegal alien is ahem... breaking the law and illegal...

The government dictates this based on the law of the land....

You think a law is not just? Elect someone who will change the law.

How have you contacted and worked with your elected officials to get these "unjust" laws changed?

Excellent post!