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Old 07-18-2011, 02:43 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistygrl092 View Post
Again, it's a given that if a person will work for $3 an hour that is the person someone will hire. This drags wages down.
you mean it drags prices down for everyone?
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:46 PM
 
5,547 posts, read 8,292,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
you mean it drags prices down for everyone?
No, I mean it drags wages down or, if you prefer, pushes wages down.

And if you don't like the source I cited, go ahead and read page 15 of this report.

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Administration/Report_The_Impact_of_Illegal_Immigration_on_Minnes ota_120805035315_Illegal%20Immigration%20Brief%202 6.pdf (broken link)

Now, realize page 15 is from 2004 numbers and not during this "Great Recession." Jobs are even fewer to go around and so people are more willing to do the work that it has been alleged only illegals will do.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:57 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistygrl092 View Post
No, I mean it drags wages down or, if you prefer, pushes wages down.

And if you don't like the source I cited, go ahead and read page 15 of this report.

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Administration/Report_The_Impact_of_Illegal_Immigration_on_Minnes ota_120805035315_Illegal%20Immigration%20Brief%202 6.pdf (broken link)

Now, realize page 15 is from 2004 numbers and not during this "Great Recession." Jobs are even fewer to go around and so people are more willing to do the work that it has been alleged only illegals will do.
We know that people offering to work for less pushes wages down lol. It doesn't do so "artificially."

His point was that this will also tend to push prices down.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:01 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmahdinejead
The trick if you're anti-illegal is to change the meaning of "artificially" in economic parlance entirely.
Completely misread this before! Consider at least one rep point unearned, lol.


The trick in "pro-illegal," "pro-big business" parlance is to change the definition of "artificially"!

The labor market is ARTIFICIALLY influenced when the pool of workers do not demand or require the same wages, because it is competition between people from third world countries and people from first world countries.

People moving to first world countries from third world are willing to continue to live in third world conditions to make first world wages. In many industries, single men with no intention on staying here have no problem living 5-6-10 to a single household, making below-average wages and working more hours than they should by law.


Then again, I suppose it's the "libertarian wet dream" to imagine a world where millions of unskilled, desperate laborers pour into America to create a race to the bottom in wages.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:03 PM
 
5,547 posts, read 8,292,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
We know that people offering to work for less pushes wages down lol. It doesn't do so "artificially."

His point was that this will also tend to push prices down.
Yeah, I got that. So tomatoes will cost less. Ok. And I never mentioned the word artifically.

And there are jobs being done such as construction that formerly Americans would have done. Something that used to be done (not sure if it is anymore) is that Mexicans would hang around the Home Depot parking lots waiting for people to drive by for day labor.

And you can read the thread in this forum regarding the 28 illegals busted at the bakery in Mesa and it's a perfect example of what I am talking about. There are plenty of Americans who would not mind working at a bakery.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:07 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistygrl092 View Post
Yeah, I got that. So tomatoes will cost less. Ok. And I never mentioned the word artifically.

And there are jobs being done such as construction that formerly Americans would have done. Something that used to be done (not sure if it is anymore) is that Mexicans would hang around the Home Depot parking lots waiting for people to drive by for day labor.

And you can read the thread in this forum regarding the 28 illegals busted at the bakery in Mesa and it's a perfect example of what I am talking about. There are plenty of Americans who would not mind working at a bakery.
I don't consider Americans inherently more important than non-Americans, so I am not particularly interested in this sort of argument.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:10 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistygrl092 View Post
I should have thought it would be self evident to those who pay attention to what is going on in this country. The guy next door had Mexicans working on his addition - not Americans. Now, I can't say whether they were legal or not, but in any event I know the guy next door is cheap and would hire the cheapest labor.

Also, many of the jobs now require one be bilingual and preference is given to those who are. Since many employers do things under the table, so to speak, this is also adding to the problem.
Many times things that may appear to be self evident actually aren't upon a closer examination. Take time for example, one might think it self evident that a second is a second and a minute is a minute and that is universally true, but what we've actually found is that time can be distorted. Or take your neighbor in your example, you pointed to the fact that he was using Mexican labor proved he was cheap. However, how do you know that these Mexicans were the cheapest labor available? Also, how do you know the cost was the only factor that went into his decision-making process? How do you know that the quality of work wasn't better than the next lowest priced guy?
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:10 PM
 
5,547 posts, read 8,292,911 times
Reputation: 2757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I don't consider Americans inherently more important than non-Americans, so I am not particularly interested in this sort of argument.
This isn't about value, this is about the law. When people come here illegally and take our jobs away, I am going to get ticked off!

Didn't you read the thread title? Your response doesn't even make sense.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:13 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
We know that people offering to work for less pushes wages down lol. It doesn't do so "artificially."

His point was that this will also tend to push prices down.
Also, labor has a price.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:14 PM
 
5,547 posts, read 8,292,911 times
Reputation: 2757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Many times things that may appear to be self evident actually aren't upon a closer examination. Take time for example, one might think it self evident that a second is a second and a minute is a minute and that is universally true, but what we've actually found is that time can be distorted. Or take your neighbor in your example, you pointed to the fact that he was using Mexican labor proved he was cheap. However, how do you know that these Mexicans were the cheapest labor available? Also, how do you know the cost was the only factor that went into his decision-making process? How do you know that the quality of work wasn't better than the next lowest priced guy?
How do I know? Because he only paid his architect $2K which is pretty darn cheap to design an addition. How do I know? Because I've have multiple conversations with the guy running the project who has told me he is not being paid nearly enough for what he is doing. And the guy who isn't being paid enough for what he is doing (who is Mexican and here legally) was in charge of hiring the other Mexicans who built the house who did not speak English and had their Mexican music on during the process for all to hear.

Oh, and how else do I know I am dealing with someone who is not above board? It could be the several IRS liens filed against him in the past for non payment of taxes. It's amazing what one can find out on the Internets.
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