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Old 07-20-2011, 01:24 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,961 times
Reputation: 89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You can’t possibly be this naive. Why do you think so many legitimate contractors are unable to compete against contractors that hire illegals? And, why would a greedy contractor give a second thought to helping consumers save, or boosting the overall economy? After all, they’re narcissists. They only think of themselves.

Yet you admit in this post that they do provide their services to people at lower costs. Pocketed savings imo.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:27 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,985 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
None of that is relevant as long as U.S. citizens must pay billions annually to support illegal aliens. Not to mention, the theft of taxes due to rampant tax fraud by illegal employers.


lol, it's quite relevant when it's in direct reply to your specific claims that consumers can't save money via lower labor costs while overall prices increase.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:31 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,771 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Okay, if itís BS, then letís see your data which proves otherwise. Show us by industry the savings we are receiving due to illegal immigration.
lol, you made the claim, champ.

In fact, why don't I back off. I don't know if all illegal immigrant employers are pocketing the savings. You seem to be confident.

Prove.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
Geez, you're contradicting yourself in your own post. In back to back sentences.

When you say:



You're agreeing with the fact that cheaper labor lowers the cost of a product or service!

Why do you think those contractors are able to provide services at prices below what "legitimate contractors" can?

If the contractor using undocumented workers was truly "Pocketing the Savings" there would be no difference in price between the contractor using undocumented workers and an employer using citizen workers, and thus they necessarily would be able to compete with each other.

When you ask,




You're answering your own previous question. They would give a second thought to helping consumers save because they GET MORE BUSINESS BECAUSE THE PRICES THEY CHARGE THOSE CONSUMERS ARE LOWER.

...which is why those legitimate companies can't compete, as you claim.
Thereís a HUGE difference between a legitimate contractorís inability to compete against employers of illegals, and the actual cost to the consumer. The illegal contractor can easily underbid the legitimate contractor because the legitimate contractor will have a higher overhead due to paying the prevailing wage, taxes and insurance. So, naturally, the illegal contractor can charge less. But, an unscrupulous contractor will also cut corners. After all, if they had integrity they would operate a legitimate business. So, in the final analysis, the consumer pays more because rather than paying once for a job, they must pay twice to have the shoddy work redone, and inferior materials replaced.

You couldnít pay me to purchase a new home constructed by illegals. I have heard too many horror stories of leaky roofs, unstable foundations, faulty plumbing, and myriad other problems. Thatís not my idea of cost-savings.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:08 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,771 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thereís a HUGE difference between a legitimate contractorís inability to compete against employers of illegals, and the actual cost to the consumer. The illegal contractor can easily underbid the legitimate contractor because the legitimate contractor will have a higher overhead due to paying the prevailing wage, taxes and insurance. So, naturally, the illegal contractor can charge less. But, an unscrupulous contractor will also cut corners. After all, if they had integrity they would operate a legitimate business. So, in the final analysis, the consumer pays more because rather than paying once for a job, they must pay twice to have the shoddy work redone, and inferior materials replaced.

You couldnít pay me to purchase a new home constructed by illegals. I have heard too many horror stories of leaky roofs, unstable foundations, faulty plumbing, and myriad other problems. Thatís not my idea of cost-savings.
loooooool.

Those are the only accurate parts of this. The rest is made up. "But since they're employing illegals, they are probably using cheap wood, too, those cheap bastahds!"

Amazing. Truly an achievement of the human spirit.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol, you made the claim, champ.

In fact, why don't I back off. I don't know if all illegal immigrant employers are pocketing the savings. You seem to be confident.

Prove.
No, you canít provide data because it doesnít exist. If, as you claim, we are saving through illegal immigration, there should be more than enough data available. After all, wouldnít that be a huge plus for the pro-illegal side? Yet, you canít provide even one study from one industry showing even an estimate of how much money illegal aliens save consumers. Again, if we were actually saving, it would be evident.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:13 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,771 times
Reputation: 111
hahaha, I cannot get over that post.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:14 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,771 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
No, you canít provide data because it doesnít exist. If, as you claim, we are saving through illegal immigration, there should be more than enough data available. After all, wouldnít that be a huge plus for the pro-illegal side? Yet, you canít provide even one study from one industry showing even an estimate of how much money illegal aliens save consumers. Again, if we were actually saving, it would be evident.
I'm not the one making the claim

You said it was not happening. Economic theory, myself and others explained, would hold otherwise.

Go ahead and show the facts. This happens all the time. Benicar makes claim. Someone says "lol wat?" Benicar goes "THEN SHOW ME THE DATA." Don't be lazy, show the data when it's your claim.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:29 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Let's put another twist on here. I showed the citizenship document of one of my Great Great Grandfathers. Was there possibly also those immigrants that did not do any citizenship process once they arrived, but voted or held property illegally against the laws of the United States at the time? No "American DREAM Act" immigrant children brought at a young age, not realizing they didn't actually have U.S. citizenship later?

Those same laws weren't important in principle when they were broken?...

Or was it just the economics and expansionism of the past that forgave them, glorified as "helping to build this great country"?...

The children born in the United States would be covered for U.S. citizenship, just like an "Anchor Baby" is today. But their parents that committed "misrepresentation" of U.S. citizenship weren't deported, leaving them in place to have families that would have not otherwise been here. Why not use the same arguments on our principles for them?

The topic was started to compare past immigrants to illegal aliens after all...

Is it possible there are more damning comparisons than contrasts?...
What happened in the past and how immigration was handled back then is totally irrelevent to today's rules. Once you get that through your head you might be able to debate this issue based on today's laws and today's immigration both legal and illegal. Those people are all dead now. Try living in the present.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Then why bring up past "Amnesties" or refer to the families of "Anchor Babies" that should not otherwise be here? The past is the past, whether that is a matter of years or centuries. Do our principles about U.S. citizenship also change with the times, considering our ancestors to have universally "earned" it anyway, no matter what work they did?

The Great Great Grandfather I referenced was very illustrious in his smithy work and management, but had notable court cases that went against him for his willingly deceptive land speculation sales. When he died, his wife was effectively put in the poor house for the rest of her life.

I object to us glorifying our ancestors and applying that unattainable standard to our principles now. Treating the recent past differently from the distant past is wrong, especially by using the same argument. The law is definitive and understandable, but if we are going to talk about current enforcement we shouldn't be pridefully deceiving ourselves about our own possible origins.
You are mixing apples with oranges here. Saying that most of the early immigrants came here legally and assimilated is just a fact. There weren't millions coming here illegally like we have today. Immigrants came from different countries and backgrounds back then. Today we have millions of illegals from mostly one ethnic group and country.

Even if my ancestors had come here illegally (but they didn't) I still wouldn't be an advocate for illegals today. I am opposed to illegal immigration and I can't be held responsible for what my ancestors did or didn't do anyway. Are you saying that if I had knowledge that my ancestors came here illegally that means I should ignore our immigration laws of today? You are then assuming that I would have approved of my ancestor's lawbreaking and I wouldn't have. That's just plain nutty thinking.

As for bringing up the 1986 amnesty, the reason it is brought up is to show what a failure it is to reward immigration lawbreakers and yet amnesty keeps rearing its ugly head today.

Last edited by chicagonut; 07-20-2011 at 03:12 PM..
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