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Old 07-20-2011, 03:53 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,176,297 times
Reputation: 2130

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Why didn't your ancestors fight religious intolerance, military conscription, bad government structure and policies, national conflicts, and failed farming practices (i.e. over-dependence on a susceptible potato crop) in their own home countries? If you want that changed, you had better stop legal immigration as well. That is Immigration 101: When the going gets tough, the tough get going elsewhere.
We cannot speak for the reasons people did what they did decades ago, however the fact remains that these early immigrants for the most part came here legally. The subject is ILLEGAL immigration, not legal immigration. If someone wants to come here legally to improve their lives that's just fine but coming here illegally to do so is not acceptable. The only choice they should have is to stay in their countries and fix them rather than coming here illegally. What part of that don't you get?
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:05 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,176,297 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Only if the savings are shared with consumers, which is not true for the employers of illegal aliens.
Not only that but cheaper labor doesn't necessarily translate to cheaper prices to the consumer as in the case of illegal alein labor where their social costs are also passed on to the consumer. Any cheap prices are wiped out and instead causes an actual increase in prices when that is factored in.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,957 posts, read 30,201,927 times
Reputation: 17764
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Not only that but cheaper labor doesn't necessarily translate to cheaper prices to the consumer as in the case of illegal alein labor where their social costs are also passed on to the consumer. Any cheap prices are wiped out and instead causes an actual increase in prices when that is factored in.
If we look at it as a type of (for lack of a better analogy) total compensation just as jobs are viewed as a total package with pension, medical etc then it is by far.

pay (whether or not under the table)
education for their family
expense of out emergency rooms treated as a primary physician
plus the other laundry list of expenses the tax payers get shouldered with.



We are subsidizing the illegal businesses. It was supposed to be bad to aid GM but somehow people think it's a good thing to subsidize these illegal businesses with the exact same money?
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:47 PM
 
403 posts, read 281,398 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
If we look at it as a type of (for lack of a better analogy) total compensation just as jobs are viewed as a total package with pension, medical etc then it is by far.

pay (whether or not under the table) most are not
education for their family if they have one
expense of out emergency rooms treated as a primary physician
plus the other laundry list of expenses the tax payers get shouldered with.



We are subsidizing the illegal businesses. It was supposed to be bad to aid GM but somehow people think it's a good thing to subsidize these illegal businesses with the exact same money?
Even if some illegal aliens are causing a drain on the system, you can't just lump them all together and say "We are subsidizing all businesses that employ illegals!" It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,844,279 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
loooooool.

Those are the only accurate parts of this. The rest is made up. "But since they're employing illegals, they are probably using cheap wood, too, those cheap bastahds!"

Amazing. Truly an achievement of the human spirit.
I guess this is also made up.

Quote:
Sentinel/WESH inspections of 406 homes built during 2001 discovered hundreds of examples of poor-quality construction: concrete-block walls that had little or no mortar in the joints; stucco so thinly applied that the outline of the blocks underneath was visible; air-conditioning ducts bent at such sharp angles that almost no cool air could get through; metal-frame windows jammed into crooked openings in the wall.

Such carelessness is the result of building too many houses too fast, with workers who have little training and not enough oversight, builders and hired hands say. Adding to the problem is the fact that many workers can't speak or read English, or decipher a blueprint.

Private home inspector Kelvin Eder recalled finding poorly installed roof trusses in one west Orange County house -- because the crew could not read English.

As long as a picture was available, the trusses were aligned perfectly, he said. But some connection points were wrong, he said, because the framers could not follow the written details on how the work was to be done.

Combine all the problems -- unskilled labor, spotty supervision, rushed work schedules, language issues -- and the result is "just bad construction," custom-home carpenter Richard Taylor said.
Fast work by subcontractors' unskilled labor leads to flaws - Certified Inspectors serving Fernandina Beach, Amelia Island, Yulee, Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beaches, Atlantic Beach, all of Northeast Florida and Southeast Georgia

Quote:
Besides being ripped off by sometimes six-figure sums for shoddy work, “The dangers are too real,” Leary says. A recent Pebble Beach sting uncovered two registered sex offenders were part of an unlicensed contracting crew. “This is what you could be inviting into your home.” 


Projects done in violation of building code or to poor quality are routinely ordered torn down, ultimately costing the homeowner more.

Contractor Chase | MontereyCountyWeekly.com

Quote:
Boudreau owns Living Water Design & Build of Centreville. His company builds decks and home additions and finishes basements, and Boudreau would also like to someday develop low-income housing for Fairfax County. He began as a laborer and worked his way up to become a Class A builder and master carpenter, and he’s appalled by and angry about the type of work he’s seen many illegals do.

"Homeowner after homeowner comes to me, looking to repair something illegal immigrants did — it’s always the same issue," he said. "I see the most unsafe, really stupid and worst building practices done by illegals who know very little about building codes — and that’s very dangerous. But there’s no enforcement, so structures are incorrectly built and the results are horrendous — ceilings buckle, roofs sag and decks fall apart."

But Boudreau said proceeds from things such as business licenses and state and federal taxes are "what allows our system to work and allows us to have police, firefighters, hospitals and roads. Third-world countries are fighting for all of that."
Illegal Immigrants? Impact (http://connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=314948&paper=82&cat=104 - broken link)


It's funny. You claim the cheap labor illegals provide results in savings for consumers. But, you also argue that they are paid the same as legal workers, and that all required taxes, insurance, etc. are paid. So, which is it? It certainly can’t be both.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,844,279 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post

lol, it's quite relevant when it's in direct reply to your specific claims that consumers can't save money via lower labor costs while overall prices increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol, you made the claim, champ.

In fact, why don't I back off. I don't know if all illegal immigrant employers are pocketing the savings. You seem to be confident.

Prove.
Again, how are we saving when we are forced to pay billions for their support, not to mention losing billions in tax revenue? I wonder why the government has not published a report on the numerous cost savings associated with the employment of cheap, illegal labor. Even more telling is the fact that they refuse to publicize the true costs to taxpayers.

Sadly, wages continue to decline, and the middle class continues to die.

Yes, these crooks are passing along their savings to consumers.

Quote:
DeWitt, NY – The owners of a Pennsylvania construction company face up to 10 years in prison, a fine up to $250,000 and other penalties for using illegal aliens on a theater reconstruction job at ShoppingTown Mall in DeWitt.

John Cimino, 55, of Doylestown, Pa., and Anthony Cimino, 57, of West New Hope, Pa., pleaded guilty Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Utica to conspiracy to conceal, harbor and shield illegal aliens from detection for commercial advantage and private gain, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Syracuse said.
Pa. construction company's owners face prison, fines for hiring illegal aliens on ShoppingTown theater job | syracuse.com

Quote:
Was it worth it? That is the question Daron Keith Stalvey, a Horry County contractor is probably asking himself after pleading guilty to hiring illegal immigrants and tax evasion. Stalvey Construction Company, Inc. and some other small businesses of his were used to conceal earned income. Stalvey billed jobs in the name of his other entities and then claimed Stalvey Construction expenses as tax deductions.
Contractor Hiring Illegal Aliens May Get $1M Fine and 10 Years | Contractor Insurance And Risk Management Blog

Quote:
The information alleges that, between about October 2004 and November 2008, Duong and Long conspired to harbor multiple illegal aliens for commercial advantage and personal financial gain.
Vinton restaurant owners charged with hiring illegal workers, tax fraud | Eastern Iowa News Now

Quote:
Two owners of Mexican restaurants in a Southwest chain were arraigned on Thursday in federal court in Phoenix on 19 charges that they knowingly hired illegal immigrants as kitchen workers and committed tax fraud by paying them off the books.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/us...ref=taxevasion

Quote:
COLUMBUS, Ohio - A Delaware, Ohio, business owner pleaded guilty on Wednesday to one count of evading federal employment taxes with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and to one count of encouraging illegal aliens to reside in the United States. Jaroslaw Luczkowiec, 45, faces a maximum prison sentence of five years and a fine of up to $250,000.

By listing these individuals as subcontractors, Luczkowiec evaded paying federal employment taxes that were due to the IRS, as well as the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) taxes. Between 2005 and June 2010, Luczkowiec prepared and/or caused to be prepared false and fraudulent Employer's Quarterly Federal Tax Returns, Forms 941, which were filed with the IRS, resulting in a total unreported federal employment tax liability of $453,309.05.
Business owner pleads guilty to tax fraud and hiring illegal aliens

Quote:
On April 25, 2011, in Pittsburgh, Pa, Alexander Litt, the sixth and final defendant of an illegal worker scheme was sentenced to 56 months in prison, followed by three years supervised release, on his conviction of conspiracy to harbor illegal aliens for commercial gain and money laundering conspiracy. The court also ordered the forfeiture of cash and property to the United States.
Examples of Employment Tax Fraud Investigations - Fiscal Year 2011 (http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=228085,00.html - broken link)
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,844,279 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Even if some illegal aliens are causing a drain on the system, you can't just lump them all together and say "We are subsidizing all businesses that employ illegals!" It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest.
But, we are subsidizing illegal employers. The businesses that knowingly hire illegals also do not pay their required taxes. In addition, we must foot the bill for the support of their illegal workforce. It isn’t dishonesty. It’s a FACT.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:46 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,957 posts, read 30,201,927 times
Reputation: 17764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
Even if some illegal aliens are causing a drain on the system, you can't just lump them all together and say "We are subsidizing all businesses that employ illegals!" It's intellectual dishonesty at it's finest.
How would almost every single one not fall into that category?

Not drive
file an ITN and pay taxes
PAY at a Doctors office for all services used
pay for a private school for their kids
avoid the free lunch programs
avoid all other social services altogether.

Do you really think there would be many? It's not even some, it's most that in some form cost tax payers.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:03 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,007,706 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
There’s a HUGE difference between a legitimate contractor’s inability to compete against employers of illegals, and the actual cost to the consumer. The illegal contractor can easily underbid the legitimate contractor because the legitimate contractor will have a higher overhead due to paying the prevailing wage, taxes and insurance. So, naturally, the illegal contractor can charge less. But, an unscrupulous contractor will also cut corners. After all, if they had integrity they would operate a legitimate business. So, in the final analysis, the consumer pays more because rather than paying once for a job, they must pay twice to have the shoddy work redone, and inferior materials replaced.

You couldn’t pay me to purchase a new home constructed by illegals. I have heard too many horror stories of leaky roofs, unstable foundations, faulty plumbing, and myriad other problems. That’s not my idea of cost-savings.
Re-quoting for lulz
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Old 07-20-2011, 07:24 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,999 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post

Once again Benicar adds the scary crime link when it isn't at all relevant. This time two whole sex offenders were found. We better lock down the borders. They are all sex offenders!!!

If businesses provide bad service they go out of business. If they aren't training their employees to build to code they will be fined and shut down.

Quote:
It's funny. You claim the cheap labor illegals provide results in savings for consumers. But, you also argue that they are paid the same as legal workers, and that all required taxes, insurance, etc. are paid. So, which is it? It certainly can’t be both.
Hint: The legal immigrants are willing to work for less as well. If the illegals are getting paid the same as legals they could still both be cheaper than the citizens are willing to do it for. Pocket the savings.
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