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Old 07-23-2011, 11:40 AM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
Reputation: 89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How can they claim to “do their best" when they refuse to even allow states to inquire about a person’s immigration status? If they actually wanted to know the costs associated with let’s say K-12, they would require immigration status to be indicated on each child’s school record. They would still be allowed to attend school, but we would then have an accurate accounting of the costs.

For the LAST time. They have NO data to analyze. So, clearly, they cannot estimate costs. Again, consider each agency and their lack of data, and explain why my assessment is wrong.

Yeah I forgot the Census Bureau, IRS, SSA, etc. had control over the school system and also possess levels of power that go above and beyond the constitution and Supreme Court cases about asking those sorts of things. They should stop estimating the best they can and start enacting laws like they are some other branch of the gov't completely.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Yeah I forgot the Census Bureau, IRS, SSA, etc. had control over the school system and also possess levels of power that go above and beyond the constitution and Supreme Court cases about asking those sorts of things. They should stop estimating the best they can and start enacting laws like they are some other branch of the gov't completely.
Where in the Constitution does it state that a hospital cannot record the immigration status of a patient? They certainly have the right to ask for a patientís SSN. So, there is no reason they cannot ask for a legal form of identification from a foreigner. And, where in Plyler v. Doe does is prohibit a school from inquiring about a studentís immigration status? As long as the child is offered a public school education regardless of immigration status, what law is being violated?
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:15 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,979 times
Reputation: 17
I was planning on writing a rather long point-for-point reply, but I think it might be more illustrative to just pin down one point here:

Benicar, if the government has no reliable statistics, how do you know immigrants are a net cost to society?
Or, to put another way, how do you know their contributions to the federal coffers are outweighed by their costs to the local municipalities?
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
I was planning on writing a rather long reply, but I think it might be more illustrative to just pin down one point here:

Benicar, if the government has no reliable statistics, how do you know immigrants are a net cost to society?
Or, to put another way, how do you know their contributions to the federal coffers are outweighed by their costs to the local municipalities?
Obviously, I donít know what their true cost or benefit may be to this country, because clearly, we lack sufficient data. But, I would certainly like to know. Wouldnít you?

Regardless, I do not support amnesty.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:57 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,979 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Obviously, I donít know what their true cost or benefit may be to this country...
You do realize that you've spilled a considerable number of electrons here trying to support the position that illegals are costing the US too much money, and that you have used that argument as a defense for why undocumented workers and their families ought to be deported, right?

Like, all those links that you post about hospital costs, school costs, are essentially irrelevant if you don't know the whole picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Regardless, I do not support amnesty.

Of course. We know you don't support the DREAM Act. Our concern is why don't you support it.

It's obviously not because of the costs to society - since, as you just admitted, you have no idea whether they're a net benefit or cost.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDros View Post
You do realize that you've spilled a considerable number of electrons here trying to support the position that illegals are costing the US too much money, and that you have used that argument as a defense for why undocumented workers and their families ought to be deported, right?

Like, all those links that you post about hospital costs, school costs, are essentially irrelevant if you don't know the whole picture.




Of course. We know you don't support the DREAM Act. Our concern is why don't you support it.

It's obviously not because of the costs to society - since, as you just admitted, you have no idea whether they're a net benefit or cost.
Unfortunately, we may never have the whole picture. But, how does that in any way negate the billions they are costing taxpayers annually? How does that change the fact that a dialysis clinic in Atlanta was forced to close due to being overwhelmed by illegal aliens? How does that lessen the overcrowding in our schools? These are real issues.

We may not have an accurate accounting, but we do know they are receiving tax-funded pre/postnatal care, WIC, welfare, subsidized housing, organ transplants, kidney dialysis, and much more. Surely you can’t believe their federal tax withholdings, whatever they may be, are enough to cover these costs. Moreover, if millions of employed U.S. citizens do not add to our tax base due to low wages and allowable deductions and credits, why would you assume low-wage illegals add an appreciable amount?

I oppose the DREAM Act, because I do not believe we should reward unlawful behavior. It’s just that simple.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:26 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Unfortunately, we may never have the whole picture. But, how does that in any way negate the billions they are costing taxpayers annually? How does that change the fact that a dialysis clinic in Atlanta was forced to close due to being overwhelmed by illegal aliens? How does that lessen the overcrowding in our schools? These are real issues.

We may not have an accurate accounting, but we do know they are receiving tax-funded pre/postnatal care, WIC, welfare, subsidized housing, organ transplants, kidney dialysis, and much more.
So you're not going to post up the methods on how hospitals and schools estimate I take it?

Quote:
Surely you can’t believe their federal tax withholdings, whatever they may be, are enough to cover these costs. Moreover, if millions of employed U.S. citizens do not add to our tax base due to low wages and allowable deductions and credits, why would you assume low-wage illegals add an appreciable amount?
Well, it's kind of funny. In this very thread you posted a comment from the Texas Comptroller. I posted a statement from that very same Texas Comptroller a few posts later a long with a study stating that they provide a $17 billion benefit to Texas state domestic product and there is also approx. a $400 million surplus to the taxes they pay in after state costs are deducted and you laughed at it and dismissed it. Why are you using statements from that same exact person then?! Is this one of those instances where you have "after a thorough assessment of their data source, or lack thereof, I have come to the realization that NONE of their data is credible." Lolol.

Last edited by huddledmasses; 07-23-2011 at 01:39 PM..
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
So you're not going to post up the methods on how hospitals and schools estimate I take it?

Well, it's kind of funny. In this very thread you posted a comment from the Texas Comptroller. I posted a statement from that very same Texas Comptroller a few posts later a long with a study stating that they provide a $17 billion benefit to Texas state domestic product and there is also approx. a $400 million surplus to the taxes they pay in after state costs are deducted and you laughed at it and dismissed it. Why are you using statements from that same exact person then?! Is this one of those instances where you have "after a thorough assessment of their data source, or lack thereof, I have come to the realization that NONE of their data is credible." Lolol.
I already told you hospitals and schools have established fees. If you are unable to comprehend, Iím sorry, I canít help you.

We are waaaaayyyy past this. Get with the program. I think most by now realize there is a shortage of reliable data. I acknowledged it. Itís time for you to move on.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:41 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
Reputation: 89
No, you are way past it because you don't have a response.

You said that their data was more accurate. Great. Say an ER visit is $1k. How do they know how many illegals used the ER when they can't check immigration status? You even went as far as saying that the information is available. Please prove to us how accurate their record keeping is please.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
No, you are way past it because you don't have a response.

You said that their data was more accurate. Great. Say an ER visit is $1k. How do they know how many illegals used the ER when they can't check immigration status? You even went as far as saying that the information is available. Please prove to us how accurate their record keeping is please.
For the umpteenth time, a citizen will have, at the very least, a SSN. An illegal will not. That is, unless resorting to theft or fraud, which, of course, many do. It isnít that difficult to determine if a patient or student is here legally. Or, are you suggesting we have no illegal aliens in this country attending our schools or using our hospitals?
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