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Old 07-20-2011, 10:51 AM
 
403 posts, read 280,669 times
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Cogent arguments itt.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,009,391 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
...If you think illegals are not working for the federal government, think again. Also, letís not forget the illegal alien police officer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
It is truly remarkable to me that anyone continues to compare the past to the present as justification for illegal entry into our country today. We have had to tighten our rules and implement quotas for legal immigration today based on the reasons pointed out numerous times in here. Yet the pro-illegals persist with their "well look how easy it was a hundred plus years ago". Is common sense just totally absent in their minds?
Let's put another twist on here. I showed the citizenship document of one of my Great Great Grandfathers. Was there possibly also those immigrants that did not do any citizenship process once they arrived, but voted or held property illegally against the laws of the United States at the time? No "American DREAM Act" immigrant children brought at a young age, not realizing they didn't actually have U.S. citizenship later?

Those same laws weren't important in principle when they were broken?...

Or was it just the economics and expansionism of the past that forgave them, glorified as "helping to build this great country"?...

The children born in the United States would be covered for U.S. citizenship, just like an "Anchor Baby" is today. But their parents that committed "misrepresentation" of U.S. citizenship weren't deported, leaving them in place to have families that would have not otherwise been here. Why not use the same arguments on our principles for them?

The topic was started to compare past immigrants to illegal aliens after all...

Is it possible there are more damning comparisons than contrasts?...
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Yeah I don't recall any of the things happening then that you are trying to claim would happen now. Is it a delayed effect?
In 1986, our government amnestied 3 million illegals, and promised it would be the LAST time. They said our laws would be stringently enforced, our borders would be secured, and consequently, we would NEVER have massive numbers of foreigners entering our country illegally. NONE of their promises were kept. As a result, we now have untold millions living in our country illegally. Why on earth should we believe another amnesty would not have similar, if not even more devastating results? Common sense dictates we should not reward unlawful behavior. It only serves as a magnet for more.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I mean, you have yet to provide one cogent argument, actually.

See how that works? Instead of actually discussing anything, I just said "you have not convinced me." That way I don't have to argue!

Seriously though, I've tried several times to get into the economics of protectionism. Not once has it not gotten derailed with "they're illegal! American jobs durdurdur"
No, you have explained how you, your dad, and others with a penchant for cheap labor would benefit. Sorry, that is not the same as benefiting the majority of citizens in this country.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Let's put another twist on here. I showed the citizenship document of one of my Great Great Grandfathers. Was there possibly also those immigrants that did not do any citizenship process once they arrived, but voted or held property illegally against the laws of the United States at the time? No "American DREAM Act" immigrant children brought at a young age, not realizing they didn't actually have U.S. citizenship later?

Those same laws weren't important in principle when they were broken?...

Or was it just the economics and expansionism of the past that forgave them, glorified as "helping to build this great country"?...

The children born in the United States would be covered for U.S. citizenship, just like an "Anchor Baby" is today. But their parents that committed "misrepresentation" of U.S. citizenship weren't deported, leaving them in place to have families that would have not otherwise been here. Why not use the same arguments on our principles for them?

The topic was started to compare past immigrants to illegal aliens after all...

Is it possible there are more damning comparisons than contrasts?...
Thatís history. We are now living in the year 2011. Times change, as do our laws and needs.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:08 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
No, you have explained how you, your dad, and others with a penchant for cheap labor would benefit. Sorry, that is not the same as benefiting the majority of citizens in this country.
I never explained how I would personally benefit, actually, although we all would. Well we talked about prices, too, but since you guys don't believe in that sort of economics 101, I'll break this down the best way I can think of.

Let's say there is one worker, Bob, who can do job X. There is one employer who is willing to pay up to $15/hr for the labor, but after that he loses any profitability. Bob comes in and offers to do the job for $10/hr.

Who just benefited there? Who could have benefited more? Was anyone wronged?
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,009,391 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Given that we cannot grant visas to unlimited people, if we legalize illegal aliens, naturally, we must deny visas to many who are currently waiting. Or, do you think we can admit half of the world? The salient issue is their presence in this country. Unlike others, they are already here enjoying the opportunities and freedoms others can only hope to one day experience. How is that fair?
You didn't answer the question. How are would-be immigrants "waiting in line" outside the United States being delayed right now by illegal aliens? Absolutely nothing is finalized or implemented for any "Amnesty" in the future, much less assured to happen.

A full two-thirds of legal immigrants are allowed by a relationship to a U.S. citizen, the vast majority of those without quotas (there is no "line", just the time for USCIS and the Department of State to process the petitions). Illegal aliens cannot delay them from being issued an Immigrant Visa. The ball is back in your court to answer my original question.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I never explained how I would personally benefit, actually, although we all would. Well we talked about prices, too, but since you guys don't believe in that sort of economics 101, I'll break this down the best way I can think of.

Let's say there is one worker, Bob, who can do job X. There is one employer who is willing to pay up to $15/hr for the labor, but after that he loses any profitability. Bob comes in and offers to do the job for $10/hr.

Who just benefited there? Who could have benefited more? Was anyone wronged?
You are completely ignoring the fact that illegal immigration depresses wages, and it ONLY benefits the illegal workers and their employers. How do the displaced, and now unemployed workers benefit? Moreover, why should ANY illegal alien replace a legal worker? This isnít an issue of having a shortage of qualified workers. This is simply to satisfy greed.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You didn't answer the question. How are would-be immigrants "waiting in line" outside the United States being delayed right now by illegal aliens? Absolutely nothing is finalized or implemented for any "Amnesty" in the future, much less assured to happen.

A full two-thirds of legal immigrants are allowed by a relationship to a U.S. citizen, the vast majority of those without quotas (there is no "line", just the time for USCIS and the Department of State to process the petitions). Illegal aliens cannot delay them from being issued an Immigrant Visa. The ball is back in your court to answer my original question.
Perhaps not now. However, if we grant amnesty to millions of illegals, there is no way in hell it will not impact our legal immigration quotas. How could it not? Again, illegals are already here, while those playing by the rules continue to languish in foreign lands. That is so wrong.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:24 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You are completely ignoring the fact that illegal immigration depresses wages, and it ONLY benefits the illegal workers and their employers. How do the displaced, and now unemployed workers benefit? Moreover, why should ANY illegal alien replace a legal worker? This isnít an issue of having a shortage of qualified workers. This is simply to satisfy greed.
So not even a tiny, half-hearted attempt to answer my question, huh?

Next time you ask for cogent explanations of why large supplies of cheap labor can help the economy, remember then you are completely unwilling to actually engage in such conversations.
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