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Old 07-26-2011, 12:00 AM
 
146 posts, read 188,698 times
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Interesting responses.
I am not sure what to say about the benefits or detriments of making a lot of people suddenly legal citizens. I don't care for the idea of people coming here illegally, especially since the legal immigrants have to jump through so many hoops and do it the right way.

That being said, I don't see where the illegal people are taking a lot of jobs away from citizens. Face it most of us don't want to work tough jobs in the agriculture industry or other jobs that pay very low wages and aren't desirable. You can't even find teenagers to do them any more.

Last edited by dendrobium; 07-26-2011 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:15 AM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,598,196 times
Reputation: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by dendrobium View Post
Interesting responses.
I am not sure what to say about the benefits or detriments of making a lot of people suddenly legal citizens. I don't care for the idea of people coming here illegally, especially since the legal immigrants have to jump through so many hoops and do it the right way.

That being said, I don't see where the illegal people are taking jobs a lot of jobs away from citizens. Face it most of us don't want to work tough jobs in the agriculture industry or other jobs that pay very low wages and aren't desirable. You can't even find teenagers to do them any more.
This is the problem that I would like to point out.

How many illegal immigrants do you think are working agricultural jobs or "very low wages?" It is not as bad as people seem to think. My experience, direct experience, with illegal immigrants hasn't been in some tobacco field. It has been in restaurants or retail stores. Growing up as a high school or college student, I worked with illegal immigrants. They were making whatever minimum wage was (just like everyone else who was either a student or new) and were getting at least 35 hours (more than many of us who were eligible for that many hours [during the summer or in college]). Some were even members of management because someone who could speak Spanish had to be the liason () for all the other Spanish-speaking employees. You know how the corporate world is: hire someone else to deal with problems. So, they were making decent money, not much, but OK. Then there were the workers that had been there for a while.

These weren't crappy jobs. If you look at the nation's top cities, they are pretty populated with illegal immigrants. They aren't rural areas with farm jobs. Those jobs are a small percentage of the work force, yet, we have such a number of illegal immigrants.

So, yes, legal workers WILL do the jobs illegal immigrants are mostly doing. There are illegal immigrants all over the country making money that a legal worker could use.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:19 AM
 
Location: In this horrid OBOMINATION
321 posts, read 306,390 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
This. This times a million. As a consumer if I want to buy American, often my choices are to buy foreign or to do without the item. Often I do without the item. I buy American whenever I can but our options are very limited.
+1,000,000

I have been to walmart twice this year. I try to buy American and to drill own further I try to buy from local and/or small -non big chain stores when I can.

I do this a lot regarding restaurants
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:35 AM
 
Location: The Lakes
2,372 posts, read 4,341,412 times
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Wait, I thought most of the right-wingers SUPPORTED no taxes and low wages... Isn't that what they push for for LEGAL Americans? Aren't the illegals living the conservative dream of working in a low tax paying business environment?
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:14 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,185,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You are contradicting yourself. If they are already paying large amounts of taxes, legalizing them isn't going to change that (you've presented assumption that legalizing them will increase taxes). You've also assumed they are all receiving less than minimum wage. Those that are working (unless paid in cash) already have taxes withheld and, according to arguments, file tax forms at the end of the year and must be paid at minimum wage or higher. Health care won't change for them either, as most are of low income and would qualify for State sponsored medi- subsidies as they already may qualify for.

It looks like by legalizing them, it will actually increase their costs as they will make sure they file tax returns and apply for all applicable tax credits and deductions.

CATO's study uses assumptions like "no more monies going to coyotes", and "other costs associated with illegal entry". CATO also wants to charge an "immigration tax" in order to attain the gains they claim. There are flaws in the USAGE model, it's mostly an assumed equation that takes limited (federal level) numbers and fails to account for State and Local costs.
Not only that but one of the arguments being presented by this poster and others in here is that employers should be able to hire anyone they want to including illegal aliens. If this batch of illegals were legalized then wouldn't the employers just continue to hire whom they want including the next batch of illegals for more profit? Wouldn't this batch of illegals newly legalized become one of those "unproductive", lazy workers just like what is claimed about the American worker? Where does this nonsense and cycle end?

Why legalize illegal aliens here when Americans need those jobs?
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:19 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,185,212 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dendrobium View Post
Interesting responses.
I am not sure what to say about the benefits or detriments of making a lot of people suddenly legal citizens. I don't care for the idea of people coming here illegally, especially since the legal immigrants have to jump through so many hoops and do it the right way.

That being said, I don't see where the illegal people are taking a lot of jobs away from citizens. Face it most of us don't want to work tough jobs in the agriculture industry or other jobs that pay very low wages and aren't desirable. You can't even find teenagers to do them any more.
So I guess we have never had an American blue collar workforce in this country? Who did those jobs before the arrival of cheap, illegal labor? You can find teenagers and less educated Americans that will do manual labor jobs. As for agricultural jobs, there is only a small percentage of illegals doing those jobs and where there is a lack of American workers there are unlimited visas for "legal" immigrant workers. At any rate, our laws are our laws and no employer has the right to hire illegal workers. If they can't succeed with illegal labor then they need to go out of business.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:46 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,133,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillz View Post
Illegal immigrants aren't taking anything. Employers are GIVING the jobs to illegal immigrants so they can pay less in salary and taxes. Once EMPLOYERS stop GIVING the jobs to illegal immigrants legal citizens can take those jobs.

Fine the employers BIG! Perhaps seize their business. Whatever, but the punishment should be HUGE for those that employee illegal immigrants. Of course that means that people are going to have to pay a fair rate for those that pick produce, take care of their children, handle their landscaping, cook and clean in the restaurants, and wipe their behinds in the nursing homes.
Both are the blame.

But if they were not here to begin with, this would not have happen.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:01 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,008,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You are contradicting yourself. If they are already paying large amounts of taxes, legalizing them isn't going to change that (you've presented assumption that legalizing them will increase taxes).
I'm not contradicting myself. I was working with the assumptions of various people here.

There are one of two scenarios I see regarding taxes:

1. Illegals are not paying their taxes as they would be if they were citizens, but are in fact paying less. There is debate here about how MUCH less, which I referenced, but leave that aside.

2. Illegals are in fact paying exactly or roughly what they would if they were legal.

Now, everyone here thinks that some variation on number 1 is accurate. It's probably roughly true, though not nearly to the extent that is claimed. Legalizing these workers, would, of course, erase this complaint.

If number 2 is accurate, it's still not contradictory to support legalization. Do you see why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You've also assumed they are all receiving less than minimum wage.
What? No, I have not, I was addressing the implications of the post I was responding to (you seem to not notice this in your search for contradictions, but whatever). It's frequently implied here that some massive percentage of illegal immigrants are getting less than min. wage. They aren't, although some are, and legalizing them would be at least one step toward making this less common.

You later make the assumption that legalization would, among the illegals paying taxes, suddenly make them more aware of deductions etc. I will go on the record as doubting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
CATO's study uses assumptions like "no more monies going to coyotes", and "other costs associated with illegal entry". CATO also wants to charge an "immigration tax" in order to attain the gains they claim. There are flaws in the USAGE model, it's mostly an assumed equation that takes limited (federal level) numbers and fails to account for State and Local costs.
I don't have the time today to go into Cato's study in full, but the first line you've stated is almost certainly going to be correct.

I've earlier made the case that the money going toward coyotes etc. could easily be shifted into the pockets of the US government. Everyone here dismissed the idea, for reasons that amount to...well they didn't amount to anything. There's money right now being invested into emigrating here that we are receiving no part of. For a group of people constantly complaining about costs, there sure seems to be a lack of policy savvy in that regard.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:17 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,133,326 times
Reputation: 2200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I'm not contradicting myself. I was working with the assumptions of various people here.

There are one of two scenarios I see regarding taxes:

1. Illegals are not paying their taxes as they would be if they were citizens, but are in fact paying less. There is debate here about how MUCH less, which I referenced, but leave that aside.

2. Illegals are in fact paying exactly or roughly what they would if they were legal.

Now, everyone here thinks that some variation on number 1 is accurate. It's probably roughly true, though not nearly to the extent that is claimed. Legalizing these workers, would, of course, erase this complaint.

If number 2 is accurate, it's still not contradictory to support legalization. Do you see why?



What? No, I have not, I was addressing the implications of the post I was responding to (you seem to not notice this in your search for contradictions, but whatever). It's frequently implied here that some massive percentage of illegal immigrants are getting less than min. wage. They aren't, although some are, and legalizing them would be at least one step toward making this less common.

You later make the assumption that legalization would, among the illegals paying taxes, suddenly make them more aware of deductions etc. I will go on the record as doubting this.



I don't have the time today to go into Cato's study in full, but the first line you've stated is almost certainly going to be correct.

I've earlier made the case that the money going toward coyotes etc. could easily be shifted into the pockets of the US government. Everyone here dismissed the idea, for reasons that amount to...well they didn't amount to anything. There's money right now being invested into emigrating here that we are receiving no part of. For a group of people constantly complaining about costs, there sure seems to be a lack of policy savvy in that regard.

ILLEGALS should not be here to begin with.

Taxes are irrelevant.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:24 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,008,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
ILLEGALS should not be here to begin with.

Taxes are irrelevant.
Oh, so I assume you'll never be mentioning them again.

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