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Old 07-27-2011, 03:11 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillz View Post
THAT is my point. How can I want to outlaw something that is ALREADY illegal?? I just want those that employ them to be subject to severe punishment. If you don't break the law and hire illegal immigrants what is your problem?
Um, obviously we don't agree with the laws.

You are copping out. We ask you to defend the law and you basically say "well I don't want to do that, I just know it's illegal." Lots of things that you and I do are illegal, and I'd bet that many of those are very loosely enforced. When you're calling for "severe" punishment you should have some kind of actual justification for the illegality.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara
1,474 posts, read 2,585,630 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Um, obviously we don't agree with the laws.

You are copping out. We ask you to defend the law and you basically say "well I don't want to do that, I just know it's illegal." Lots of things that you and I do are illegal, and I'd bet that many of those are very loosely enforced. When you're calling for "severe" punishment you should have some kind of actual justification for the illegality.
Not copping out. I have never said if I do or do not support the laws so why would I have to defend them? Following them doesn't mean you are agreeing with them. If you are knowingly breaking the law you ought to be willing to take the punishment if caught.

You don't know me so you have no idea if I do things that are illegal.

My point is, if one is complaining about illegal immigration they should also see part of the problem is those that hire them. That was my one and only point. You may want to hire illegal immigrants. BUT you cannot complain about illegal immigrants if you are adding to the problem by employing them. I am not saying you as in you Rockmadinejad, general you.

I think you think I am arguing with you about the merits of the law. I am not. I can argue both sides and that is why I don't participate in that part of the debate. I just get tired of the blame being put soley on the immigrants rather than the employers that hire them. Both are breaking the law no matter how you justify it.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:15 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
No, the logical conclusion is that I don't want to reward people for criminal behavior. The logical conclusion is that I don't think illegals should get to skip the immigration lines, violate our borders and ignore our laws just because criminals want to make demands.
ok

Let's rewind and see what you wrote that I responded to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
I would like them to obey our laws and go home. Why is that so hard to understand? Legalize them and you'll only invite more of them.
So you'd be upset that "more" of "them" would show up - despite the legalization?
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:18 PM
 
497 posts, read 1,236,398 times
Reputation: 290
I agree, fine the employers.

The problem is with the Federal Govt....we have an old set of laws that are in need of updating given the change in our Country. Changing legal status so if your born here doesnt make you an automatic citizen, employer laws, and deportation laws.

We have a very heavy flow of immigrants coming in from Mexico and South American countries...these countries have a % of poor population and they do not suppport them....thus, they let them run up to the U.S. to find work and send $$ to their country.

If we change federal laws, concentrate on employers, then we would not need to spend money on border patrol for illegal aliens.

If we take it a step further and legalize the largest illegal imports to this country, we would save many $$$ on border patrol costs and could re-direct them to other services our country is in desperate need of.

Illegal immigration is the fault of the Homeowner that hires them, the employer that hires them. I dont blame the immigrant one bit..its a free for all in their eyes.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:34 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggd1 View Post
I agree, fine the employers.

The problem is with the Federal Govt....we have an old set of laws that are in need of updating given the change in our Country. Changing legal status so if your born here doesnt make you an automatic citizen, employer laws, and deportation laws.

We have a very heavy flow of immigrants coming in from Mexico and South American countries...these countries have a % of poor population and they do not suppport them....thus, they let them run up to the U.S. to find work and send $$ to their country.

If we change federal laws, concentrate on employers, then we would not need to spend money on border patrol for illegal aliens.

If we take it a step further and legalize the largest illegal imports to this country, we would save many $$$ on border patrol costs and could re-direct them to other services our country is in desperate need of.

Illegal immigration is the fault of the Homeowner that hires them, the employer that hires them. I dont blame the immigrant one bit..its a free for all in their eyes.
So you wouldn't blame the thief that robs your home just because you forgot to lock your front door? Only you would be guilty? Then I guess you wouldn't call the police department to report it because afterall you were the only guilty one? I agree that we need to go after the employers but come on, the illegals are equally guilty.

What illegal "imports" are you talking about? Are you saying we don't need the Border Patrol to prevent illegal entry from illegal job seekers, terrorists and criminals? The latter two are not trying to seek jobs here.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:36 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillz View Post
Not copping out. I have never said if I do or do not support the laws so why would I have to defend them? Following them doesn't mean you are agreeing with them. If you are knowingly breaking the law you ought to be willing to take the punishment if caught.

You don't know me so you have no idea if I do things that are illegal.

My point is, if one is complaining about illegal immigration they should also see part of the problem is those that hire them. That was my one and only point. You may want to hire illegal immigrants. BUT you cannot complain about illegal immigrants if you are adding to the problem by employing them. I am not saying you as in you Rockmadinejad, general you.

I think you think I am arguing with you about the merits of the law. I am not. I can argue both sides and that is why I don't participate in that part of the debate. I just get tired of the blame being put soley on the immigrants rather than the employers that hire them. Both are breaking the law no matter how you justify it.
They aren't immigrants, they are illegal aliens. Learn to know the difference, please.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:22 PM
 
497 posts, read 1,236,398 times
Reputation: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
So you wouldn't blame the thief that robs your home just because you forgot to lock your front door? Only you would be guilty? Then I guess you wouldn't call the police department to report it because afterall you were the only guilty one? I agree that we need to go after the employers but come on, the illegals are equally guilty.

What illegal "imports" are you talking about? Are you saying we don't need the Border Patrol to prevent illegal entry from illegal job seekers, terrorists and criminals? The latter two are not trying to seek jobs here.
Your comparing two different things (I didnt intentionally unlock my door and waive a theif into my home) but I understand your point.

The Alien is guilty of crossing our border and with that, I think he/she should be deported along with Fining the employer who/if he/she is hired.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:43 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggd1 View Post
Your comparing two different things (I didnt intentionally unlock my door and waive a theif into my home) but I understand your point.

The Alien is guilty of crossing our border and with that, I think he/she should be deported along with Fining the employer who/if he/she is hired.
I was not comparing two different things. It was a logical analogy. You should have said you blame both the employer and the illegal workers rather than implying that illegals are like children that should not be held accountable for breaking our laws by working here just because the temptation was there. They are more than just guilty of crossing our border illegally. That was just the beginning of their lawbreaking.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:02 AM
 
497 posts, read 1,236,398 times
Reputation: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I was not comparing two different things. It was a logical analogy.
I dont think it was but thats fine. I blame employers 90% and immigrants 10%. Wave a bone at a dog and he's going to come. ( you are right, I should have allocated blame more appropriately). I dont agree with an immigrant cominh here,
but I dont blame them for doing so....U.S. employers are waiving that bone at them.

Eliminate the source of the problem (the employer offering the job) and the problem will disapear.

My other reference about illegal imports was drugs. Thats the fault of the drug users....eliminate them and the problem will disappear. Since we can't do that, we need to legalize them, so big drug co's can produce it for cheap and run that problem out of town as well...... yes we will always need border protection for terrorist, but it will be a lot easier.

Last edited by greggd1; 07-28-2011 at 12:39 AM..
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Old 07-28-2011, 06:25 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,099,270 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggd1 View Post
I dont think it was but thats fine. I blame employers 90% and immigrants 10%. Wave a bone at a dog and he's going to come. ( you are right, I should have allocated blame more appropriately). I dont agree with an immigrant cominh here,
but I dont blame them for doing so....U.S. employers are waiving that bone at them.

Eliminate the source of the problem (the employer offering the job) and the problem will disapear.

My other reference about illegal imports was drugs. Thats the fault of the drug users....eliminate them and the problem will disappear. Since we can't do that, we need to legalize them, so big drug co's can produce it for cheap and run that problem out of town as well...... yes we will always need border protection for terrorist, but it will be a lot easier.
How are you going to blame 90% employers & 10% on illegals.

They are both accountable for their actions equally.
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