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Old 07-26-2011, 02:58 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In-state tuition is indeed subsidized by taxpayers, as are state colleges and universities. Ergo, it IS at taxpayers’ expense.
The school, if your state is funneling taxpayer funds into it instead of relying on profits from tuition, may well be a taxpayer expense. But in-state tuition is a discount on attendance that is designed to turn a long term profit. I mean, California pours what, $3B a year into the UC system? What do you think the annual return is, seriously? Obviously you're not looking at a $3B loss every year for eternity.

The same basic logic applies to scholarships. When UC-B offers some smarty pants kid a full ride, it's not burning $200k. It's investing in talent that it thinks will pay off down the line.

 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:01 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
How many times must we tell you, they donít belong here?
How many times must I tell you that assertions aren't arguments?
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:01 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,856,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Sure, there's a political angle.

But you should explain how deporting someone rather than giving them a discounted college education and the ability to work legally is the more profitable move. Do you think that the average college educated person is a drain on the economy?
I made the case that an illegal is a drain and not that a college-educated person is a drain. I am for legal immigration - especially in areas where we are behind.

Things to consider:

- illegal gets in-state discount while a legal from another state does not. To me, this is a waste of money (bad ROI). Plus we are indirectly encouraging more illegals to come over.

- illegal takes up a seat that could have gone to a legal. Ultimately, some legals cannot get in because of illegals. Please name countries that encourage this. FYI, read about how badly Mexico treats the illegals crossing into its borders while it lectures the US on model behavior.

- your hypothetical illegal gets deported - deportation costs are lower than education - so another win for ROI.

- illegal goes back to his country and whines about being deported. This has a multiplicative effect - 10 others listening to him and planning to come over change
their minds. Another win for ROI.

- instead of the illegal, the 'legal' gets an education and a job. More ROI, less unemployment.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
The school, if your state is funneling taxpayer funds into it instead of relying on profits from tuition, may well be a taxpayer expense. But in-state tuition is a discount on attendance that is designed to turn a long term profit.

The same basic logic applies to scholarships. When UC-B offers some smarty pants kid a full ride, it's not burning $200k. It's investing in talent that it thinks will pay off down the line.
I donít care what itís ďdesigned to do.Ē I am telling you how itís funded. And, state colleges and universities in EVERY state are subsidized by taxpayers. Otherwise, they would be ďprivateĒ institutions.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:07 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by california-jewel View Post
Fellow Californians your really a bunch of jerk offs, HAPPY/ well i am not, with many others, who did not want LOSER JERRRY BROWN BACK IN, when will you ever learn, you ignorant ignorant voters.

Get a back bone will ya?
There are many patriotic Californians. I am one of them. I have no use for Jerry Brown and was shocked that he actually won the election again. That is when I realized how many ignorant voters there were.

Until we change the mindset of these liberals who through their own pocketbooks feel the bankruptcy of our state personally by idiotic legislation that they are advocating for, we sane voters will just have to continue to fight for our state in as many ways as possible.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
How many times must I tell you that assertions aren't arguments?
Sorry, but is it NOT an assertion. They are here in violation of our laws. Therefore, they do not belong here. Our laws are not nullified simply because you do not respect them, or believe illegals should have to obey them.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
I made the case that an illegal is a drain and not that a college-educated person is a drain.
But we're talking about college educated illegal immigrants here, right? So let's say that the government decided that any illegal who got his college degree at an accredited American university could legally work in the US. You think the average illegal that goes through this process is a drain?


Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
- illegal gets in-state discount while a legal from another state does not. To me, this is a waste of money (bad ROI).
California doesn't feel like discounting the education of Dave from New York because Dave from New York is more likely to use the education he got discounted in California and take it back East.

California does, however, want to provide discounts for people who it believes will stay in California, because that is much more likely to pay off down the line. This still applies to illegals insofar as those illegals are likely to stay. Now you can reasonably argue that they are in fact less likely to stay, and thus the in-state tuition should be a bit higher. If you could factually back that up, I'd support it. But the state doesn't operate like that. In reality I'd assume that there's a difference in how likely someone from the middle of nowhere California and someone from LA is to hang around Cali after school. The state doesn't adjust for those situations that I know of, but I think it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
- illegal takes up a seat that could have gone to a legal. Ultimately, some legals cannot get in because of illegals.
I don't think I've seen you around the board, but I actively don't care about this. The fact that someone is legal and someone is illegal doesn't make me want to give a job or an education to one over the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
Please name countries that encourage this. FYI, read about how badly Mexico treats the illegals crossing into its borders while it lectures the US on model behavior.
It's unfortunate that other countries are not more liberal in their immigration policies. I do not care to base my opinions off of global averages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
- your hypothetical illegal gets deported - deportation costs are lower than education - so another win for ROI.
Education costs pay off later, so that's not a win for ROI. I'm paying my law school a whole bunch of money right now, but obviously the plan is to earn it back using the leverage the degree grants me.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:15 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,856,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
But we're talking about college educated illegal immigrants here, right? So let's say that the government decided that any illegal who got his college degree at an accredited American university could legally work in the US. You think the average illegal that goes through this process is a drain?




California doesn't feel like discounting the education of Dave from New York because Dave from New York is more likely to use the education he got discounted in California and take it back East.

California does, however, want to provide discounts for people who it believes will stay in California, because that is much more likely to pay off down the line. This still applies to illegals insofar as those illegals are likely to stay. Now you can reasonably argue that they are in fact less likely to stay, and thus the in-state tuition should be a bit higher. If you could factually back that up, I'd support it. But the state doesn't operate like that. In reality I'd assume that there's a difference in how likely someone from the middle of nowhere California and someone from LA is to hang around Cali after school. The state doesn't adjust for those situations that I know of, but I think it should.



I don't think I've seen you around the board, but I actively don't care about this. The fact that someone is legal and someone is illegal doesn't make me want to give a job or an education to one over the other.



It's unfortunate that other countries are not more liberal in their immigration policies. I do not care to base my opinions off of global averages.



Education costs pay off later, so that's not a win for ROI. I'm paying my law school a whole bunch of money right now, but obviously the plan is to earn it back using the leverage the degree grants me.
Nope - cannot convince me that giving "discounts" and subsidies to illegals is a good thing. No other country does this. I would rather give the discount to Dave from NY than some illegal - our obligations are to our fellow citizens - even though you do not subscribe to this philosphy. (PS: life calls - I am out of this discussion now..... )
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
But we're talking about college educated illegal immigrants here, right? So let's say that the government decided that any illegal who got his college degree at an accredited American university could legally work in the US. You think the average illegal that goes through this process is a drain?




California doesn't feel like discounting the education of Dave from New York because Dave from New York is more likely to use the education he got discounted in California and take it back East.

California does, however, want to provide discounts for people who it believes will stay in California, because that is much more likely to pay off down the line. This still applies to illegals insofar as those illegals are likely to stay.
Yes, they are a drain. They are a drain at the K-12 level, and likewise, if subsidized by taxpayers, will continue to be a drain at the college level.

In case you don’t know, CA cannot restrict the movement of illegals graduating from state universities. This is a free country, and people are free to choose to live in any state, or live abroad. CA cannot require illegals to sign a document prohibiting them from leaving the state, so your argument holds no water.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 03:22 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,127 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In case you donít know, CA cannot restrict the movement of illegals graduating from state universities. This is a free country, and people are free to choose to live in any state. CA cannot require illegals to sign a document prohibiting them from leaving the state, so your argument holds no water.
My argument does not rely on this assumption.
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