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Old 07-30-2011, 11:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You have still not adequately explained why we need to import millions, unlimited numbers of impoverished people when unemployment and welfare rates of American citizens is so very high.
Why do you need to do this every time we're having a separate discussion? I don't lead off every post I direct at you with "you have not convinced me that illegal immigration is not beneficial" or something generic like that. Just stick to the topic. I posed certain questions, not a generalized position statement.

 
Old 07-30-2011, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
It is increasingly obvious that your concerns are regarding the welfare system as a whole. Not one of these complaints can realistically be said to not apply to all Americans (though, lol, pretty sure the welfare queens you concern yourself with aren't aiming at college financial aid).



Notice how they have no worries about health care? How are you "noticing" that, exactly? Just because it's not mentioned in this one article?
We are all aware of welfare abuse by citizens. But, how does that justify allowing untold millions of illegal aliens to also abuse our tax funds?

The mere fact that healthcare was not mentioned, would indeed indicate that it is not high on their list of concerns. But, as malamute stated, why should it?
 
Old 07-30-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We are all aware of welfare abuse by citizens. But, how does that justify allowing untold millions of illegal aliens to also abuse our tax funds?
It doesn't? But the complaints malamute makes are regarding the system in general. If we all paid taxes that went toward a giant pile of cookies, and then realized it was super easy for people to just steal those cookies, that would be a problem, right? All of a sudden you have huge numbers of people stealing from our cookie pile. It's a public policy concern. Then you notice that illegal immigrants are also taking advantage of how easy it is to steal those cookies. This is not a separate public policy problem, do you see why?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The mere fact that healthcare was not mentioned, would indeed indicate that it is not high on their list of concerns. But, as malamute stated, why should it?
Before health care reform was passed, NCLR was very active in the debate.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
It doesn't? But the complaints malamute makes are regarding the system in general. If we all paid taxes that went toward a giant pile of cookies, and then realized it was super easy for people to just steal those cookies, that would be a problem, right? All of a sudden you have huge numbers of people stealing from our cookie pile. It's a public policy concern. Then you notice that illegal immigrants are also taking advantage of how easy it is to steal those cookies. This is not a separate public policy problem, do you see why?


Before health care reform was passed, NCLR was very active in the debate.
But, it IS a separate issue. Citizens have a legal right to be here, whether they partake of the “cookies” or not. On the other hand, illegal aliens have no legal right to be here, OR partake. Their illegal presence, and the amounts they receive from welfare, only serves to exacerbate the problem. Do you actually not understand the difference?

The healthcare law was passed, but has yet to be implemented. Therefore, I would expect it to continue to be among their concerns.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
But, it IS a separate issue. Citizens have a legal right to be here, whether they partake of the “cookies” or not. On the other hand, illegal aliens have no legal right to be here, OR partake. Their illegal presence, and the amounts they receive from welfare, only serves to exacerbate the problem. Do you actually not understand the difference?
It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of understanding that for purposes of this discussion, there is no difference.

A. No one has a right to partake
B. Some people, in addition, don't have a right to be in the country

You may or may not notice that B is irrelevant here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The healthcare law was passed, but has yet to be implemented. Therefore, I would expect it to continue to be among their concerns.
It probably is, but whatever (you seem to be conflating their interests with the results of this poll). They're a lobbying organization that wants certain things for the interests they represent. When legislation is proposed, there are a few steps. In basic form it's 1. pass law, 2. pass regulations. People get wayyy less interested after step 1, and lobbying organizations who are not experts on the topic step out of the way, because step 2 is extremely complicated.

As much as I'm sure they are concerned about what you think they SHOULD want, maybe you let them represent their own interests. Your only purpose here seems to be to try to point out that they have different interests than most "other" Americans. Great story.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:35 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,484,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Why do you need to do this every time we're having a separate discussion? I don't lead off every post I direct at you with "you have not convinced me that illegal immigration is not beneficial" or something generic like that. Just stick to the topic. I posed certain questions, not a generalized position statement.
I don't mind at all explaining why unlimited and massive illegal immigration is not beneficial. I think that's what it all comes down to -- back in the housing bubble days, people thought it was, they thought we needed millions of roofers and dry wall installers, unemployment rates were fairly low even with NAFTA and millions of jobs going to China. Public opinion appears to have shifted because with our chronically high unemployment rates and a government out of money, it's hard to understand why we need millions of cheap laborers coming in.

Also as far as the welfare "cookies", other countries provide for their less capable citizens. Mexico does, Mexico provides assistance of some kind to it's elderly, infirm and so on, but could it provide for it's own and all the world? Of course not and neither can we.

Welfare programs for Americans is one thing because that alone would limit the numbers but when anyone from anywhere in the world can access the food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, and housing assistance, just by giving birth here, it limits our ability to take care of even our own.

La Raza wants us to become like the cat lady with more cats than she can feed. She starts out loving cats, has a few of her own, but instead of stopping there, she wants to take in any and every stray cat and provide it a nice home, plenty of food. The cats grow in number and the next thing her own cats are being attacked, going hungry, and she just keeps taking in more cats. Then she loses the ability to take care of them at all.

At some point other people in other countries need to stay and build up their countries.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,507,691 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of understanding that for purposes of this discussion, there is no difference.

A. No one has a right to partake
B. Some people, in addition, don't have a right to be in the country

You may or may not notice that B is irrelevant here.


It probably is, but whatever (you seem to be conflating their interests with the results of this poll). They're a lobbying organization that wants certain things for the interests they represent. When legislation is proposed, there are a few steps. In basic form it's 1. pass law, 2. pass regulations. People get wayyy less interested after step 1, and lobbying organizations who are not experts on the topic step out of the way, because step 2 is extremely complicated.

As much as I'm sure they are concerned about what you think they SHOULD want, maybe you let them represent their own interests. Your only purpose here seems to be to try to point out that they have different interests than most "other" Americans. Great story.
I disagree. Your “B” example is VERY relevant. We are already borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, so adding millions more to our welfare rolls is indeed a serious problem, not to mention, an unnecessary and unsustainable burden.

Sorry, I did not conduct this poll, La Raza did. So, if their views differ from most “other” Americans, it is based on their responses. My opinion of them has no bearing on the poll results.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:38 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,206,904 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Also as far as the welfare "cookies", other countries provide for their less capable citizens. Mexico does, Mexico provides assistance of some kind to it's elderly, infirm and so on, but could it provide for it's own and all the world? Of course not and neither can we.

Welfare programs for Americans is one thing because that alone would limit the numbers but when anyone from anywhere in the world can access the food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, and housing assistance, just by giving birth here, it limits our ability to take care of even our own.
Great. All of your prior points, as you know, were fully generalizable to the welfare state as a whole. Is that not true?

Now, obviously I support pretty simple solutions to this - legalize them so they don't need to commit fraud, and then restrict their ability to collect welfare. The benefits of legalization will provide the necessary incentives.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:40 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,206,904 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sorry, I did not conduct this poll, La Raza did. So, if their views differ from most “other” Americans, it is based on their responses. My opinion of them has no bearing on the poll results.
Neither does their opinion, it's a poll.

You seem to be implying that they are somehow incorrect for caring about issues more or less than others. Not sure what you're getting at.
 
Old 07-30-2011, 12:42 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,484,908 times
Reputation: 22471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Great. All of your prior points, as you know, were fully generalizable to the welfare state as a whole. Is that not true?

Now, obviously I support pretty simple solutions to this - legalize them so they don't need to commit fraud, and then restrict their ability to collect welfare. The benefits of legalization will provide the necessary incentives.
Why legalize them? You claim (I believe) that we need many people here illegally. If we legalize them, then what? They no longer can do those lowly poorly paid jobs we supposedly need them to do, and even if legal, they won't be paying taxes, they'll be taking EITC.

The employers aren't going to want to pay legal wages just because their illegals turned legal, they would have to start over bringing in more truckloads of cheap replacements.

I fail to see a single benefit in legalization.
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