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Old 08-10-2011, 11:42 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345

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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
I'm not playing the race card. I'm showing an example of where a majority of people believed something was right that we look back now on as very wrong. The fact that you think I'm comparing their racism to yours pretty much explains everything.
You're godwinizing the thread. That's a sign of desperation not a convincing argument. When you have to compare your opponents to slave holders you cannot expect said opponents to take you seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
You don't need the link for that, Eleanora, I said it in my post. So yeah, I ACTUALLY READ the link, but you couldn't be bothered to read one of the three sentences in my post.

I mean, considering a huge majority of people want a path to citizenship and not auto-deportation, and you're sitting here saying we need some kind of government run based on polling (similar idea working like gangbusters in California BTW), I assume that you will admit that a path to citizenship is the way to go.
You should have provided a link. Because your link indicates that a majority of Americans are in favor of efforts to halt illegal immigration. In other words they don't want them coming here and they sure as hell don't want to reward them when they refuse to leave.

"A path to citizenship" is simply nothing but amnesty by another name. Phrase it that way and most Americans, like myself, are deeply opposed to it.

Even many Democrats like myself are against such nonsense:

Comprehensive immigration reform is dead -- and the left is to blame - War Room - Salon.com

Quote:
In the U.S., America's neoliberal globalist establishment has completely failed in its effort to persuade America's populist, nationalist citizenry that preventing illegal immigration is racist and retrograde in the age of global markets. According to a September 2010 Quinnipiac poll, "stricter enforcement of laws against illegal immigration" beat "integrating illegal immigrants into American society" by 68-24, with 9 percent answering "don't know."
Quote:
The public opinion polls make it clear that there is no significant public support for what appears to be the consensus position of the American left -- yes to amnesty, no to enforcement.
Lind does a very good job of summarizing just how out of touch most leftist leaders are on this issue.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:43 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,097,724 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
These are at odds. You're saying I should be able to rent my property to anyone I want, but you want to exclude huge numbers of people.

Pick one.
Eleanora1 did not say that.

We want to exclude illegals, people who do not belong
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:46 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,760 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Eleanora1 did not say that.

We want to exclude illegals, people who do not belong
Actually, she DID say that.

Here, let me quote it for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Hell every single person reserves the right to determine who lives in their house and who does not.
Saying you want to exclude people who don't belong is just begging the question.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:50 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
"A path to citizenship" is simply nothing but amnesty by another name. Phrase it that way and most Americans, like myself, are deeply opposed to it.

Even many Democrats like myself are against such nonsense:

Comprehensive immigration reform is dead -- and the left is to blame - War Room - Salon.com
lol "phrase it another way and a majority oppose it!" I guess you'd prefer to phrase it the way that suits your side better, then? Even though the way Gallup did it is much more descriptive and doesn't use a buzzword that almost no one understands.

Yeah, that's why polls are largely nonsense. That's why basing public policy on them, even aside from the fact that I could not give the slightest hint of a **** about what Joe Sixpack thinks we should do about the effect of overleveraged debt on the securities market or, you know, immigration, is asinine.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:51 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Putting SELECT ISSUES that YOU think are important up for referendum is basically an unworkable mess and would actually be a lot worse than mob rule.
So the public's opinion on certain issues should be ignored? Why? You don't want them put up for referendum because you know you would lose.

Quote:
For what it's worth, the Constitution is explicitly designed to stop the types of hot-headed reactionary government action you're advocating.
There's nothing hot headed about wanting our immigration laws enforced. There's certainly nothing reactionary about the desire to make sure every single high school drop out from Mexico cannot come here, work off the books, have a baby and then claim money from the public till.

Quote:
I agree, people should be free to donate to who they want to.

I agree, welfare laws have nothing to do with immigration.

So the obvious question is, if you care so much about welfare, why are you bitching about immigration laws (that, by your OWN ARGUMENT, have NOTHING to do with WELFARE, which is what you claim to care about)???
Because illegals are abusing our welfare laws. Foreign nationals should not be free to pick my pocket so they can stay here. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
There's no race card there. You totally missed the point or else you are implicitly arguing that all analogies are inherently invalid.
Comparing opponents of illegal aliens to slave holders has nothing to do with race?



Godwin's law dear. Compare your opponents to racists or Nazis and you lose an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
These are at odds. You're saying I should be able to rent my property to anyone I want, but you want to exclude huge numbers of people.

Pick one.
Did you really fail English 101 that badly?

I said no such thing. I wrote that we have the right to control our borders the same way you have the right to control who lives in your house. Implicit in such arguments is that you cannot simply rent to anyone you want. You certainly can't pass the cost of doing so on to your neighbors.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:55 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
lol "phrase it another way and a majority oppose it!"

Yeah, that's why polls are largely nonsense. That's why basing public policy on them, even aside from the fact that I could not give the slightest hint of a **** about what Joe Sixpack thinks we should do about the effect of overleveraged debt on the securities market or, you know, immigration, is asinine.
Your deep contempt for the American public has been noted. If you're going to make laws for Joe Sixpack you should at least have the grace to listen to him. That's called democracy, dear.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:00 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,007 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Your deep contempt for the American public has been noted. If you're going to make laws for Joe Sixpack you should at least have the grace to listen to him. That's called democracy, dear.
Yeah, we have a "representative" democracy, not a direct one. BTW please don't characterize my contempt for the policy solutions of the public being limited to Americans.

But seriously, how complex should a problem be before we don't bring it to a vote, exactly? How many votes should there be? Should we vote on the fence? What about the height of the fence? Americans voting on the height of the border fence is called democracy, dear, so please explain what is wrong with that concept.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:07 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,515 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
You're godwinizing the thread. That's a sign of desperation not a convincing argument. When you have to compare your opponents to slave holders you cannot expect said opponents to take you seriously.
The comprehension fail continues. I'm not surprised. Let's use women's suffrage so your panties don't get all in a ruffle. I'm pretty sure we all agree that it wasn't right and women do have rights and a right to vote. For a very long time any poll done would have shown that a majority of people agree that women shouldn't have rights to vote. Now, my point which I've reiterated a few times is "just because a majority believes something, doesn't make it right and/or constitutional."

In b4 "This has nothing to do with sexism!!"
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:16 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,760 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
So the public's opinion on certain issues should be ignored? Why? You don't want them put up for referendum because you know you would lose.
No, I just think the idea of putting SOME but not others is, you know, a horrible idea. How are you going to determine which issues should be put up for a national vote? Who will run the election (note there are currently NO federal, nation-wide elections in the US)? How are challenges, recounts, etc going to be handled consistently?

It would be a total disaster.

Quote:
Because illegals are abusing our welfare laws. Foreign nationals should not be free to pick my pocket so they can stay here. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.
AGAIN, you argued that welfare and immigration have NOTHING to do with each other, and now you're worked up about welfare but advocating changing immigration laws. Telling me AGAIN that welfare needs fixing doesn't answer my question of why you think changing immigration laws that have nothing to do with welfare is going to fix welfare.

Quote:
Implicit in such arguments is that you cannot simply rent to anyone you want.
If you want to imply that, then you should stop saying "every single person reserves the right to determine who lives in their house and who does not." Because what you actually said implies the exact opposite of "you cannot simply rent to anyone you want."
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:31 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Germany is probably the most rigorous on citizenship for Western nations (often the primary reason a German foreign national won't naturalize here, because they lose their German citizenship). Most of the Western Hemisphere follows jus soli, it was a "New World" construct from primarily gaining population through immigration. I think it is a critical part of our formation: It doesn't matter where your heritage came from (expanded to mean that your parents could have even been slaves), you are a citizen based on your own merits.
Birthright citizenship can and should be re-interpreted by the Supreme Court. Anyone who can't see why and wants children of illegal aliens born on our soil to continue to be made instant citizens has an agenda that isn't in the best interests of this country.
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