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Old 08-04-2011, 09:37 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 794,264 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I guess if the point isn't spelled out clearly enough to you guys, you miss it completely. The right to Freedom of Speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations. The Freedom of Speech Clause is aimed at the ability (of a person(s)) to criticize our government without being censored. It doesn't give you the right to speak any language you want, it is the fact that there in no Official Language in the USA (pointed out by rhymetime).
I mean, you're kind of right, the constitution doesn't give me the right to speak in whatever language I want. But it also doesn't give me the right to "criticize our government". It doesn't give ANY rights. What it does it RESTRICT what the government can do.

One of the things it restricts the government from doing is (and I quote) "abridging the freedom of speech". It doesn't say speech for particular reasons such as criticizing the government. It just says speech. It doesn't matter what the amendment was "aimed at".

Quote:
In almost every session of Congress, an amendment to the Constitution is proposed in Congress to adopt English as the official language of the United States. Often these bills are in response to legislation recognizing non-English languages in public discourse of some kind. Keep in mind, there are numerous states that have Official Language laws; Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Wyoming. A small handful date back more than a few decades, such as Louisiana (1811) and Nebraska (1920), but most official language statutes were passed since the 1970's.
Cool story, bro, but irrelevant.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:58 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,720,931 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
And I suppose now we must digress into a discussion of whether or not I am a more informed person than the esteemed state Senator Frank Ryan, or whether his label of our language in 1923 had anything beyond ill-functioning nationalist rhetoric to support itself.

Or we could tangent this out, and talk about your apparent propensity for defending everyone you deem to be on your team, leading yesterday to you collapsing into a wave of nonsense, and today to you searching for historical examples of ignorance to prop up modern ones.
I was merely pointing out the fact that American was a recognized language. It was the official language of the State of Illinois up to 1969, when it was changed to English. I also pointed out numerous other States where English is the Official Language of the State.

Instead of LOL'ing at everybody you deem against your side (opinion), you should take a moment of your internet life and do some quick research. Your claim of historical ignorance and nationalistic rhetoric only goes with your progressive, and for a lack of a better word, own ignorance. You may be of the opinion that these people are less than you simply because you believe that you may be more informed, when in reality, you're no more or less than anybody else.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:04 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,009,667 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I was merely pointing out the fact that American was a recognized language. It was the official language of the State of Illinois up to 1969, when it was changed to English. I also pointed out numerous other States where English is the Official Language of the State.

Instead of LOL'ing at everybody you deem against your side (opinion), you should take a moment of your internet life and do some quick research. Your claim of historical ignorance and nationalistic rhetoric only goes with your progressive, and for a lack of a better word, own ignorance. You may be of the opinion that these people are less than you simply because you believe that you may be more informed, when in reality, you're no more or less than anybody else.
You were pointing out something UNTRUE. I mean, any and all legislation designed to change the name of the language (EVEN THOUGH THAT LEGISLATION NO LONGER EXISTS) was done to spite Brits, the namesake of the English language.

I'm sure that somewhere in your mind, and perhaps even somewhere in Illinois long ago, "American" is a language. It's not really, though. Yesterday it became clear to me that while you do seem to know more than the average poster here, whatever color that achievement might be, you are not exactly the kind of guy who waves a flag of intellectual honesty. You know this dude wasn't making a f-ing reference to the pre-1969 official language of Illinois. I know it, too. If you want to keep talking as if that MIGHT be the case, as if there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that that absurdity is truth, you can continue. I will not stop it, only observe. Because it's truly fascinating, and I mean that sincerely.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:07 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,009,667 times
Reputation: 111
And BTW LR, you may notice several posters on this board, on my side, who are making arguments that I don't make. They make them poorly, they make them without respect for any coherent ideology or pragmatic political methodology. I do not defend them. I do not take their falsehoods and try to pretty them up for mass consumption.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:12 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,720,931 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I mean, you're kind of right, the constitution doesn't give me the right to speak in whatever language I want. But it also doesn't give me the right to "criticize our government". It doesn't give ANY rights. What it does it RESTRICT what the government can do.

One of the things it restricts the government from doing is (and I quote) "abridging the freedom of speech". It doesn't say speech for particular reasons such as criticizing the government. It just says speech. It doesn't matter what the amendment was "aimed at".



Cool story, bro, but irrelevant.
In this instance it "protects" your right to "criticize our government". It limits (restricts) the governments ability to jail you or silence you for that criticism. I would suggest reading the SCOTUS rulings on Free Speech and the purpose of the clause itself.

Speaking a different language is a Liberty (a freedom) we all have, not a right granted/protected by the Constitution.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,720,931 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
You were pointing out something UNTRUE. I mean, any and all legislation designed to change the name of the language (EVEN THOUGH THAT LEGISLATION NO LONGER EXISTS) was done to spite Brits, the namesake of the English language.

I'm sure that somewhere in your mind, and perhaps even somewhere in Illinois long ago, "American" is a language. It's not really, though. Yesterday it became clear to me that while you do seem to know more than the average poster here, whatever color that achievement might be, you are not exactly the kind of guy who waves a flag of intellectual honesty. You know this dude wasn't making a f-ing reference to the pre-1969 official language of Illinois. I know it, too. If you want to keep talking as if that MIGHT be the case, as if there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that that absurdity is truth, you can continue. I will not stop it, only observe. Because it's truly fascinating, and I mean that sincerely.
Wow, now I get to LOL at you (how doe sit feel). American was the Official Language of Illinois up to 1969. Your refusal to do any type of research is amazing and the to top it off call what I said untrue.

For all you, or for that matter I, know this guy could be an old timer. His reference, whether it fits your f'ing narrative or not, used a term that at one time was deemed Official. Maybe he is unaware that the State of Illinois changed American to English.

My intellectual honesty doesn't jump to conclusions, nor is it quick to LOL others because of their, in this case, choice of words.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:29 AM
 
Location: New Hampshire
4,828 posts, read 4,671,673 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by miss yauco View Post
When it comes to immigration, the word "legally" is commonly a subterfuge, it is legality in an arbitrary way, why are our laws more "legal" than that of the native americans?, which we violated and in the process decimated their culture. I have seen waves of legally admitted refugees from bosnia, and other countries just sitting on their butts, producing nothing and collecting all kinds of welfare, immigrants from SOB come here to work and by far underutilize social services in the usa. When it comes to the spanish language, well should I again say that it has been part of the usa for much longer than english, many intolerants may be in denial, but the people that matter are very aware of this fact, and that's why signs are in dual language in any store or agency in the

usa.....
Please post a link or links to support your claims...

And since the natives were in Mexico before the Spanish came, when do you think we should invade Mexico? What about all Guatemala and the rest of Central and South America?

Because you seem to think it is okay for those with a Spanish background to come here illegally... I want to know how you would feel if it were the other way around...
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:39 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,009,667 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Wow, now I get to LOL at you (how doe sit feel). American was the Official Language of Illinois up to 1969. Your refusal to do any type of research is amazing and the to top it off call what I said untrue.
...it IS untrue, dude. "American" does not exist as a language simply because some piece of legislation asserted as much. Allow me to petition my city council to make our official language "Rockmadican," which will have surprisingly large, potentially 100% overlap with - what is it again? "English?" And then I will tsk tsk whenever someone laughs at me for saying "THIS IS AMERICA AND WE SPEAK ROCKMADICAN." Those fools. They do not do their research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
For all you, or for that matter I, know this guy could be an old timer. His reference, whether it fits your f'ing narrative or not, used a term that at one time was deemed Official. Maybe he is unaware that the State of Illinois changed American to English.
If only this could be established, the question of whether or not that is what he was referencing - a dead law that spoke nothing to reality. If he was in fact, when saying "this America, and we speak American," actually referring to a law, dead for nearly a half century, that applied in Illinois, and simply misspoke as to the other 49 states. If it was a typo, we will never be privy to the truth. We are witnessing the sheer horror of the debate that is created when a single man, meaning to type "Illinois in 1968" accidentally types "America" when he mashes the keyboard with what can only be assumed to be his entire fist.

I mean, my GOD, the things we will go to the grave not knowing, they are heavy upon my soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
My intellectual honesty doesn't jump to conclusions, nor is it quick to LOL others because of their, in this case, choice of words.
Your intellectual honesty does nothing, because it is no thing. It is a ghost.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:04 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 794,264 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
In this instance it "protects" your right to "criticize our government". It limits (restricts) the governments ability to jail you or silence you for that criticism. I would suggest reading the SCOTUS rulings on Free Speech and the purpose of the clause itself.
Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I said.

FWIW, it doesn't matter what the purpose of the clause is. Even if the purpose is to protect political speech, it's not limited to political speech.

Quote:
Speaking a different language is a Liberty (a freedom) we all have, not a right granted/protected by the Constitution.
Yes, that's what I just said.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:47 PM
 
47,315 posts, read 24,874,981 times
Reputation: 14474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkatt View Post
In all actuality, I don't see an antihispanic attitude, I see an Anti-Illegal Alien attitude, and in a lot of instances from a members of all backgrounds, even Hispanic!

My Mother's parents came over from Russia, LEGALLY, and worked hard to become American Citizens. Many people have family who have become American citizens Legally. Why cheapen their accomplishments, and allow this to happen.

Additionally, something to consider, if we simply ALLOW these people to stay here, are we not thumbing our noses at ourselves? We have LAWS for a reason. By allowing them to stay we are in fact telling them, we are not willing to enforce our own laws. So? Which law is next that we won't enforce, and what kind of a message is being sent by not enforcing our laws? Tell me, what other country in the WORLD would put up with all these illegal "immigrants"?

Here is what we need to do.
1. All schools kick out any child whose PARENTS are not legal residents.
2. Impose HUGE fines on employers who hire ANYONE not a legal resident.
3. Impose fines on anyone who rents or allows dwelling to anyone not a legal resident.
4. Immediately deport anyone not a legal resident.

Enforce the laws and do so unconditionally. THEN we can look at increasing the numbers of people allowed to immigrate here, and require EVERYONE to learn ENGLISH. No need anything in 2 languages, this is AMERICA, and we speak english. If I move to France, they will expect me to learn french, if I move to Holland, I am expected to learn Dutch, if I move to Bosnia, I will have to learn Bosnian, (Serbian, Croation, Montenegrin). People of ALL countries expect you to conform to their standards, why should we be different?

The bottom line is, before we do anything else, we need to enforce OUR laws.
Pipe dream.

We aren't going to deport millions of illegals, nor are we going to kick their children out of schools. That's not even realistic, not to mention that it's a bad idea anyway.

The corporate masters want them here, which is why they were invited here. That invitation isn't going to be rescinded. Hell, if anything it's going to be expanded. The only way to fix the problem is to punish the inviters, not the invitees. We don't want to punish the inviters cuz you know...they are the nice guys who are "job creators" () and we shouldn't punish success. Besides, shouldn't they have a right to hire cheap labor and depress American wages? After all, us Americans don't deserve these wages and work rights. After all, we might mess up and join a union! (Aaaaahhhhrrrrggggg)
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