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Old 08-03-2011, 12:02 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
Reputation: 299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
The pictures came from articles that talked about illegals working in the fields. Jobs that americans aren't necessarily too eager to take but complain that "illegals take their jobs" and is the topic in this thread pretty much. Tell me how many americans you see working in the same conditions in those fields and being totally fine with salaries way below average, no benefits, etc.
Salaries below average (minimum wage)? cash? The farmers are required by law to pay a minimum wage(each state has its own minimum wage ag laws), they are also exempt from having to pay overtime wages to farm workers (no time and a half or double, triple, or quadruple time). Mere assumption that they are not receiving paychecks as workers, is just that, assumption. Remember many file tax forms with an ITIN number at the end of the year and need to also supply a W2, which they don't get if they don't receive paychecks. The pictures may have come from articles that talked about illegals working in the fields, but it was you that stated they were illegals, thus your argument became racist towards Latino's in insinuating that all persons with brown skin are illegal. How do you know that the persons in the pictures aren't LPR's, citizens, or h2a visa holders? Reiterating what you take from an article and its pictures and portraying it as such, doesn't help your argument.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:24 AM
 
6,250 posts, read 5,835,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Salaries below average (minimum wage)? cash? The farmers are required by law to pay a minimum wage(each state has its own minimum wage ag laws)
And the farmers are required by law to NOT hire illegaly, yet, they do it to save lots of money by paying illegals way below minimu wage, no benefits, no paid vacations, etc.

Last edited by onihC; 08-03-2011 at 09:36 AM..
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:43 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
And the farmers are required by law to NOT hire illegaly, yet, they do it to save lots of money by paying illegals way below minimu wage, no benefits, no paid vacations, etc.
If you have proof of that, by all means turn them (employers) in, otherwise you must realize that the employer must accept what appears to be a valid SS card and ID in order to employ such persons (not the employers responsibility to decide if documents are forged or not, as long as they appear legit, thus why E-Verify is recommended), thus your assumptions are just that, assumptions. The "illegal" in this situation is committing a federal felony, while the employer is covered with an I-9.

State/Federal Ag laws do not require benefits or paid vacations to employees as the work is seasonal, usually between 9 weeks and 4 months. Are you aware that the employer doesn't pay certain tax withholdings on H2A visa workers?
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:49 AM
 
6,250 posts, read 5,835,398 times
Reputation: 3544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
If you have proof of that, by all means turn them (employers) in, otherwise you must realize that the employer must accept what appears to be a valid SS card and ID in order to employ such persons (not the employers responsibility to decide if documents are forged or not, as long as they appear legit, thus why E-Verify is recommended), thus your assumptions are just that, assumptions. The "illegal" in this situation is committing a federal felony, while the employer is covered with an I-9.
So the employer is covered to make dirty business by hiring illegals? So the authorities can arrive to his farm and have the owner shake the dust off his hands and not get in trouble because he is covered? How nice. Hire illegals, pay them below minimum wage, offer no benefits what so ever, etc. Can't get in trouble because you are covered to do dirty business, eh? The illegal is committing a crime but the one who hires them is not? I guess a minor gets in trouble for buying a beer but not the liquor shop because he would be covered, kind of thing, right? Many of these illegals who work in the fields do not come for just one season. These guys are sending money back home for their poor families. A season will not be enough.

An I-9 verifies that the person who is asking for a job is eligible for employment. How can an illegal be eligible for employment? So the employers are now innocent?
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:12 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
So the employer is covered to make dirty business by hiring illegals? So the authorities can arrive to his farm and have the owner shake the dust off his hands and not get in trouble because he is covered? How nice. Hire illegals, pay them below minimum wage, offer no benefits what so ever, etc. Can't get in trouble because you are covered to do dirty business, eh? The illegal is committing a crime but the one who hires them is not? I guess a minor gets in trouble for buying a beer but not the liquor shop because he would be covered, kind of thing, right? Many of these illegals who work in the fields do not come for just one season. These guys are sending money back home for their poor families. A season will not be enough.

An I-9 verifies that the person who is asking for a job is eligible for employment. How can an illegal be eligible for employment? So the employers are now innocent?
You are not proving they are hiring illegals, paying below minimum wage, or paying in cash, you are merely claiming (assuming) they are. It's obvious you don't own, nor ever have ran a business. It's also obvious you know very little in regards to Ag laws, or employment laws for that matter. All your questions were answered, there is no need to repeat them (re-read what I have stated), I would suggest further research on your part. When you are able to prove your assumptions, we can continue the discussion.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:32 AM
 
6,250 posts, read 5,835,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You are not proving they are hiring illegals, paying below minimum wage, or paying in cash, you are merely claiming (assuming) they are
It's nothing new to know that in the USA many of the workers in the fields are illegal. Why hire an illegal when you can hire a legal? If you are trying to look business savy than you would know that people hire them to save lots of money. Same reason why some companies play it legal and open offices in other parts of the world like India, China, etc. Have you ever called customer support for Microsoft? Guess where those calls are being answered? Why? hint hint...lower wages = more money to your business' pockets and this is what the farmers do when they hire illegals, save money, earn more.

Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy : NPR
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:53 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You are not proving they are hiring illegals, paying below minimum wage, or paying in cash, you are merely claiming (assuming) they are. It's obvious you don't own, nor ever have ran a business. It's also obvious you know very little in regards to Ag laws, or employment laws for that matter. All your questions were answered, there is no need to repeat them (re-read what I have stated), I would suggest further research on your part. When you are able to prove your assumptions, we can continue the discussion.
Good response but I expect it will fall on deaf ears. I hold the employers equally accountable as the illegals themselves. The problem is that by law it has to be proven that an employer has "knowingly" hired illegal aliens. As we all know without e-verify in place there is no way of knowing if they are being presented with fake or stolen documents by illegals to gain employment.

Last edited by chicagonut; 08-03-2011 at 11:04 AM..
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:22 AM
 
109 posts, read 133,802 times
Reputation: 201
Nothing like a good old fashioned "they took our jobs!" thread to get the racial acid flowing.

Who's to blame for this mess? The answer is "yes."

Illegal immigrants are here, astoundingly enough, illegally. I'd venture to say that very few of them, if any, got drunk in Juarez, passed out, and woke up picking oranges in Florida with no idea how they got there. They willfully crossed an international border. You can show pictures of starving babies, shantytown houses with 14 people living in them, whatever. Illegal is the opposite of legal.

The businesses who hire illegals for profit provide them the incentive to make that perilous journey far from home. Turning a blind eye to the immigrant status of your workforce to save money is JUST as criminal as commuting internationally to take advantage of that negligence.

The corporate world doesn't get off clean in this either. Big business has made it VERY hard for a farmer to survive the rocky road of modern agriculture. Small markets exist, but generally speaking, a farmer is encouraged to "go big or go home" with these massive monocrop farm/orchards, necessitating the use of various fuels, fertilizers, and chemicals... Oh and don't forget the genetically enhanced Roundup ready (coincidentally expensive AND sterile!) frankenseeds... All of which combine to equal a hefty/majority portion of the profits from the whole venture in the first place. Nowadays, big farming is like playing blackjack, and the odds ain't pretty. Put in that situation, if you have the chance to save money on your labor, recover some of your scary profit margin, and maybe buy your wife something nice so she gets off your back this year... How tempted would YOU be?

The government COULD solve this, but it chooses not to, for a number of reasons that are a whole other thread. I have my theories. I'm sure you have yours.

The good news (or bad, depending on your priorities here) is, the way our economy is being Fed-Ex'd to hell in a hand cart, soon this bitter debate may be academic. Unfortunately due to international economic interdependence, somehow I doubt my personal solution to the result of all this financial madness will be to go pick fruit in Juarez and send the pesos home.

As far as all this racial nonsense... I make no apologies for my ethnicity. Nor my citizenship. I owe no man any explanations, or apologies, regarding either.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:28 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapperdoc View Post
Nothing like a good old fashioned "they took our jobs!" thread to get the racial acid flowing.

Who's to blame for this mess? The answer is "yes."

Illegal immigrants are here, astoundingly enough, illegally. I'd venture to say that very few of them, if any, got drunk in Juarez, passed out, and woke up picking oranges in Florida with no idea how they got there. They willfully crossed an international border. You can show pictures of starving babies, shantytown houses with 14 people living in them, whatever. Illegal is the opposite of legal.

The businesses who hire illegals for profit provide them the incentive to make that perilous journey far from home. Turning a blind eye to the immigrant status of your workforce to save money is JUST as criminal as commuting internationally to take advantage of that negligence.

The corporate world doesn't get off clean in this either. Big business has made it VERY hard for a farmer to survive the rocky road of modern agriculture. Small markets exist, but generally speaking, a farmer is encouraged to "go big or go home" with these massive monocrop farm/orchards, necessitating the use of various fuels, fertilizers, and chemicals... Oh and don't forget the genetically enhanced Roundup ready (coincidentally expensive AND sterile!) frankenseeds... All of which combine to equal a hefty/majority portion of the profits from the whole venture in the first place. Nowadays, big farming is like playing blackjack, and the odds ain't pretty. Put in that situation, if you have the chance to save money on your labor, recover some of your scary profit margin, and maybe buy your wife something nice so she gets off your back this year... How tempted would YOU be?

The government COULD solve this, but it chooses not to, for a number of reasons that are a whole other thread. I have my theories. I'm sure you have yours.

The good news (or bad, depending on your priorities here) is, the way our economy is being Fed-Ex'd to hell in a hand cart, soon this bitter debate may be academic. Unfortunately due to international economic interdependence, somehow I doubt my personal solution to the result of all this financial madness will be to go pick fruit in Juarez and send the pesos home.

As far as all this racial nonsense... I make no apologies for my ethnicity. Nor my citizenship. I owe no man any explanations, or apologies, regarding either.
Sorry but no, I am not tempted to break laws for my own personal gain and neither are most Americans. For crop pickers there are unlimited visas for foreign legal seasonal workers. Sure if the farmers used them it would cost them more but if they can't survive without resorting to breaking laws for profit then they should go out of business.

As for your last remarks, who is asking anyone to apologize for their ethnicity or their citizenship in this country?
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:36 AM
 
6,250 posts, read 5,835,398 times
Reputation: 3544
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Sorry but no, I am not tempted to break laws for my own personal gain and neither are most Americans. For crop pickers there are unlimited visas for foreign legal seasonal workers. Sure if the farmers used them it would cost them more but if they can't survive without resorting to breaking laws for profit then they should go out of business
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I hold the employers equally accountable as the illegals themselves.
There you go
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