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Old 08-07-2011, 05:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Or
If we punish employers who are violating employment laws there will be a reduced demand for illegals. Why reward criminal behavior?
Not to mention that we don't have the jobs or resources to "make them all legal". That is why we have annual quotas because that is all the immigrants that we can accomodate annually. What part of that don't the pro-illegals get? We have to create 200,000 new jobs per month just to keep up with population growth. What part of that don't the pro-illegals get? We have millions of unemployed Americans yet we should make these illegals "legal" so that they can continue to compete for what few jobs there are against Americans? What part of that don't the pro-illegals get?
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Why do you guys constantly equate a lack of punishment with reward?
Because in this case by allowing them to stay, allowing them to remain after cheating and trespassing is to give them exactly what they wanted. IT IS A REWARD.
Why do we strip olympic athletes of the medals they won if its discovered that they used steroids?
If you find out your child shop lifted a pack of gum do you allow him to keep the gum?
Yes it might have been over priced. Yes his friends do it all the time. Yes the store owner is a jerk. But do you reward the childs theft by allowing him to keep what he has stolen?
Most folks would say no.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:11 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Because in this case by allowing them to stay, allowing them to remain after cheating and trespassing is to give them exactly what they wanted. IT IS A REWARD.
No, it's not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Why do we strip olympic athletes of the medals they won if its discovered that they used steroids?
Because Olympic medals being awarded are contingent upon not doing steroids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
If you find out your child shop lifted a pack of gum do you allow him to keep the gum?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Yes it might have been over priced. Yes his friends do it all the time. Yes the store owner is a jerk. But do you reward the childs theft by allowing him to keep what he has stolen?
Most folks would say no.
You're not rewarding the child, it's just a turn of phrase. I mean, you can see how silly it is to draw a line in the sand here when you extrapolate this reasoning to other situations. A murderer is unsuccessfully prosecuted. Was he rewarded? Your dog eats scraps off the table. You don't do anything about it. Rewarded? These are obviously situations where you are simply not issuing punishments. That's not the same thing.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, it's not.




Because Olympic medals being awarded are contingent upon not doing steroids.



No



You're not rewarding the child, it's just a turn of phrase. I mean, you can see how silly it is to draw a line in the sand here when you extrapolate this reasoning to other situations. A murderer is unsuccessfully prosecuted. Was he rewarded? Your dog eats scraps off the table. You don't do anything about it. Rewarded? These are obviously situations where you are simply not issuing punishments. That's not the same thing.
I disagree.
By allowing the illegal to stay without leaving first. You have allowed him to keep what he cheated to gain. This is a reward.
Why? Because you dont change the rules for the ones who are doing it legally. They must wait for the VISA before coming here.
No different than the athlete. Immigrants are allowed to stay as long as they follow the rules and requirements. Illegals violated the rules and often never even attempted to apply to enter legally. They cheated. You don't let them keep what they cheated for.
And the dog you would punish for stealing scraps from the table. How else would it learn not to do it again?
The murderer. No the reward would be if he was successfully prosecuted and you allowed him to go free even after a guilty verdict.
The better analogy would be. If a Thief stole a car and was caught. Would you allow him to keep the car? If you do you rewarded him for his efforts.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I disagree.
By allowing the illegal to stay without leaving first. You have allowed him to keep what he cheated to gain.
And then if you gave him some candy for doing so, that would be a reward.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
And then if you gave him some candy for doing so, that would be a reward.
The candy is by allowing him to go unpunished and not holding him accountable for his numerous crimes. The candy is he gets to stay and keep working or doing whatever they do here.
The analogy your side uses. The speeder. If you dont make them pay a fine when caught you have rewarded them and they learn little or nothing.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:49 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The candy is by allowing him to go unpunished and not holding him accountable for his numerous crimes. The candy is he gets to stay and keep working or doing whatever they do here.
The analogy your side uses. The speeder. If you dont make them pay a fine when caught you have rewarded them and they learn little or nothing.
No, you have simply failed to punish.

All you are demonstrating is that you do not distinguish between these two concepts.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, you have simply failed to punish.

All you are demonstrating is that you do not distinguish between these two concepts.
I disagree. By allowing the criminal to keep what they gain illegally is a reward.
Not to mention that I obviously believe that criminals should be held accountable and punished for thier crimes.
For the sack of argument lets say your right its not a reward.
How is it fair or just when we make those who dont cheat or commit crimes obey the rules but dont hold those who cheated accountable and even allow them to stay?
It isnt fair or just and although this world isnt perfect that doesnt mean that we should say oh well life isnt fair. We have a standard, we have laws that millions labored and are laboring to obey. We should not tarnish or cheapen these efforts by handing out a free pass to those who thumbed their noses at our laws.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:08 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I disagree. By allowing the criminal to keep what they gain illegally is a reward.
But then you admit that you believe that failing to punish is the same thing as rewarding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Not to mention that I obviously believe that criminals should be held accountable and punished for thier crimes.
For the sack of argument lets say your right its not a reward.
How is it fair or just when we make those who dont cheat or commit crimes obey the rules but dont hold those who cheated accountable and even allow them to stay?
It isnt fair or just and although this world isnt perfect that doesnt mean that we should say oh well life isnt fair. We have a standard, we have laws that millions labored and are laboring to obey. We should not tarnish or cheapen these efforts by handing out a free pass to those who thumbed their noses at our laws.
This is all a separate issue, of course.

I don't care to argue about the enforcement of what I consider to be bad laws. I want as little enforcement of those laws as is possible.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
But then you admit that you believe that failing to punish is the same thing as rewarding.



This is all a separate issue, of course.

I don't care to argue about the enforcement of what I consider to be bad laws. I want as little enforcement of those laws as is possible.
Failing to punish is rewarding I admit that I believe this. Why? Because you have spared them the accountability for their actions.
In Bold.
I am sure every criminal in history has shared your belief.
But what makes them bad? That they restrict people you feel deserve easy access? That we have a standard for immigration that you feel is too high?
I honestly don't know and I am not mocking you.
I don't believe that I should be required to pay school taxes. I don't have children in school and when I did I feel the public education system was poor at best. Especially in regards to my autistic child. If I don't pay I will be held accountable. If when caught I don't come up with the money a sheriffs sale will strip me of what I have worked for. So I pay up. The illegals in question made the choice to ignore the laws. Just as every criminal does. Our system isnt nor should it be determined by what the prospective immigrants agree with.
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