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Old 08-07-2011, 11:00 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 1,013,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbartlebee View Post
If we "make them legal", we'd be rewarding foreigners for violating our laws, which would be an illogical thing for us to do.
If you're just determined to think of it that way, then fine. But since the law is unjust whether they get rewarded for breaking it or not doesn't matter to me at all compared to the need to stop enforcing unjust laws.
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,150,151 times
Reputation: 6549
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
If you're just determined to think of it that way, then fine. But since the law is unjust whether they get rewarded for breaking it or not doesn't matter to me at all compared to the need to stop enforcing unjust laws.
explain why the law is unjust
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,150,151 times
Reputation: 6549
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Wow, really? If weed were legalized you would really want those in jail for simple possession to stay in there? It seems to me that weed legalization would necessarily occur with an admission that the current prohibition is an immoral restriction of individual liberty. In such a case, an immediate release of all those convicted of such "crimes" seems to be the only humane and logical course of action.

The only explanation I can think of for wanting those in prison to serve out the remainder of their sentences in the event of legalization is that you have a warped worldview where rules are more important than principles by which the rules are derived.

Of course, that seems to be the starting point for most of the people here, given the frequency of the "ITS THE LAW" argument.
And for you and those who agree with you.
Its an unjust law so wo dont think it should be enforced.
Why is it an unjust law?
because it is.
But why?
Because we dont agree with it.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:50 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 1,013,360 times
Reputation: 124
If you don't think that ANY elaboration on what makes these laws unjust beyond "it just is" has been given in this forum, then you haven't been reading at all. Good grief, there's an explanation for what makes laws unjust in my post you quoted (which you obviously couldn't be bothered with reading)!
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,150,151 times
Reputation: 6549
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
If you don't think that ANY elaboration on what makes these laws unjust beyond "it just is" has been given in this forum, then you haven't been reading at all. Good grief, there's an explanation for what makes laws unjust in my post you quoted (which you obviously couldn't be bothered with reading)!
About the only thing I gather from said post is that you disagree with the principles of immigration laws. You dont explain why.
I have heard the excuse that we have plenty and can afford to share.
I have heard the excuse that at some point in time Texas might have belonged to mexico before we acquired it.
I have heard that migration is normal and no one should infringe upon it.
How are the laws inhumane? They seperate families? How is this more inhumane than those who seperated themselves from their families to come here illegally?
These excuses dont answer the question.
Why is it unjust for a nation to have immigration laws and enforce them? What standards should we as a nation have?
For example who should we exclude? Criminals? But what crimes would determine exclusion? Violent crimes? Ok but what if the country in question is corrupt and the courts notorious for framing the ones found guilty?
So those countries we ignore any criminal history?
No we need standards and they should be focused on what benefits this country. We produce a bumper crop of criminals on our own and we really have no need to import more. Every illegal if nothing else has demonstrated 1 fact. They have no problem breaking our laws.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:30 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 1,013,360 times
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Why is it JUST? If you want to impose upon other people then the burden of proof is on YOU, not the other way around. You're begging the question by dismissing arguments against your position as "excuses". I've heard all the excuses from your side. But the bottom line is that just, free governments do not erect barriers to the movement of human beings whose only crime is being born "over there".

You think we need standards, OK, then YOU tell US why the current standards are so great.

This talk of "importing" people is dehumanizing. Who is "we" anyway? Are you personally filling out an order for some immigrants? I'm not. If you move from California to Oregon, does that mean that Oregon just imported you? No, it just means you moved.

The fact that some people might be criminals doesn't give you a right to impose upon an entire group. You brought up the need for standards, OK, give us your standards. Let's hear them. You seem to think the current standards are pretty good, so tell us WHY they're so great.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:33 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,206,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
About the only thing I gather from said post is that you disagree with the principles of immigration laws. You dont explain why.
I have heard the excuse that we have plenty and can afford to share.
I have heard the excuse that at some point in time Texas might have belonged to mexico before we acquired it.
I'm pretty sure that none of us have given any of these reasons (by "us" I mean rhymetime, huddled, and me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I have heard that migration is normal and no one should infringe upon it.
Depending on what you mean by "normal," this is more or less correct. There are a bunch of ways to look at this without getting into "rights" or whatever, which no one here ever seems to want to define.

Most notably, though, you can isolate migration from one area to another without introducing variables like national borders. Guy wants to move from area A to area B. Without knowing anything else, you'd never oppose this. Now let's say you know he's poor. Do you start to oppose this now? Probably not, because there's no net negative here - if he's a drain on the place where he's from, his leaving will benefit them even if he's a burden on his new home. So let's say that he's moving across township lines. Suddenly, if you're in area B, you might have an opinion about this. This opinion is 100% selfish, because it is clear that the only net effect of him moving is that he will be slightly happier, at least, in area B. This sort of thing happens all the time - people worry about their property values when a "different element" moves into their area and so forth.

Now throw a national border between area A and area B. The issue remains fundamentally unchanged. People move different places to gain access to different resources, including jobs, including social services, etc. etc. You might think that a huge number of poor people moving into your country is definitely a bad thing. But that's a pretty big assumption. Nothing about our welfare system is inherently stable - if everyone decided to stop working all at once, our unemployment benefits would drain resources from federal and state coffers hard and fast. During recessions, you see more welfare payouts. If the welfare system cannot handle this sort of influx, it can be adjusted. It eventually WILL be adjusted in such a case. Now, if you care more about people who live within those lines than people who do not, I might suggest a complete re-evaluation of your moral universe. Maybe you disagree, but I kind of wonder what stops you from caring more about people in your state, or people in your town.

Nothing in this whole analysis requires that we go around letting in murderers. Not letting certain criminals travel around freely provides a decent incentive to avoid committing those crimes, I suppose. But if your reason for not wanting person X to move into your town is something along the lines of "this is going to affect my life negatively, I'd rather person X move back to where he affects someone ELSE'S life negatively" then yeah, you aren't really making an argument. You're just saying you think you're more important than other people. WHICH IS COOL. Seriously. I tend to worry about myself more than others, it's not like some horrendous character flaw. It's just not a coherent public policy argument.
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,502,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I tend to worry about myself more than others, it's not like some horrendous character flaw. It's just not a coherent public policy argument.
Then, you should understand why WE tend to worry about OUR citizens, rather than every poor Mexican seeking a better life. Or, are you one of the “do as I say, not as I do” hypocrites?
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:41 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,206,173 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Then, you should understand why WE tend to worry about OUR citizens, rather than every poor Mexican seeking a better life. Or, are you one of the “do as I say, not as I do” hypocrites?
Um lol, you might want to put that quote back in context, sport. I mean, respond to the non-bolded part IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING WHAT YOU BOLDED. How the hell could you read that last chunk of my post and not understand what I was saying?

Your personal concerns do not a sensible public policy make
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,502,439 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Um lol, you might want to put that quote back in context, sport. I mean, respond to the non-bolded part IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING WHAT YOU BOLDED. How the hell could you read that last chunk of my post and not understand what I was saying?

Your personal concerns do not a sensible public policy make
The section I quoted speaks for itself.
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