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Old 08-13-2011, 08:05 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,387,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
We can have that discussion separately - we do all the time. But the point is that there are plenty of reasons to support the lessened enforcement of bad laws - it's different than not expecting to be punished when you break them. For some reason, there has been trouble distinguishing these distinct concepts.

I don't think the distintinction comes with the concepts. I think the problem lies in the fact that most Americans WANT the immigration laws enforced...not lessening them. Any other laws you think are bad can wait for another time.

Would you care to list the reasons you feel the enforcement should be lessened? The punishment is irrelavent for now. I would just like to hear why you feel we should step down enforcement of our immigration laws. How does it benefit the country?
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
I don't think the distintinction comes with the concepts. I think the problem lies in the fact that most Americans WANT the immigration laws enforced...not lessening them. Any other laws you think are bad can wait for another time.

Would you care to list the reasons you feel the enforcement should be lessened? The punishment is irrelavent for now. I would just like to hear why you feel we should step down enforcement of our immigration laws. How does it benefit the country?
Sure. But keep in mind that what I'd actually like is a comprehensive reform, not simply lessened enforcement. To wit:

The free movement of labor allows for supply to more adequately meet demand.

Protectionist policies drive up prices domestically and artificially limit competition.

Government interference with an individual's pursuit of their livelihood is always suspect and should be subjected to an extremely high level of scrutiny.

The protection or granting of rights to citizens and not to non-citizens is morally arbitrary and irrelevant to any pursuit of justice.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Sure. But keep in mind that what I'd actually like is a comprehensive reform, not simply lessened enforcement. To wit:

The free movement of labor allows for supply to more adequately meet demand.

Protectionist policies drive up prices domestically and artificially limit competition.

Government interference with an individual's pursuit of their livelihood is always suspect and should be subjected to an extremely high level of scrutiny.

The protection or granting of rights to citizens and not to non-citizens is morally arbitrary and irrelevant to any pursuit of justice.

Geez....I thought we were going to have a rational discussion. Why didn't you say that in post 101?

Our country is in such bad shape right now they may have to do away with the SSI program that many in this country have paid into their entire adult lives. Can you honestly, I mean HONESTLY, tell me that we can afford to take on more poverty?

Americans are very generous people, but we don't like being fleeced. As I said, I have given Mexicans in Mexico tuition money. But...I did that of my free will. When my tax dollars, which I am FORCED to pay, are used in a way that is not beneficial to the citizens of this country I find that suspect and think it should be subjected to a great deal of scrutiny.

Obviously, I don't wish illegals any physical harm. But as far as any other "rights", I think one should look to their homeland for protection. Unless they have been brought here against their will, ie slavery, but of course that issue isn't even remotely similar to someone making a poor decision and breaking the laws of a sovereign nation.
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Geez....I thought we were going to have a rational discussion. Why didn't you say that in post 101?
Because we weren't talking about that. I was making a separate point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Our country is in such bad shape right now they may have to do away with the SSI program that many in this country have paid into their entire adult lives. Can you honestly, I mean HONESTLY, tell me that we can afford to take on more poverty?
What do you mean, "take on more poverty"? You mean, like, can we afford to pay their welfare? I guess that depends on how you look at it. I mean, nothing is forcing our government to guarantee immigrants any welfare. And it's not as if spending on the poor is some relatively massive burden on our budget to begin with. Medicare, SS, and defense spending are most of the budget. You might feel that the poor don't deserve a larger share, or that welfare is inefficient or whatever, but the idea that there is simply NO WAY to direct more aid to the poor is just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Americans are very generous people, but we don't like being fleeced. As I said, I have given Mexicans in Mexico tuition money. But...I did that of my free will. When my tax dollars, which I am FORCED to pay, are used in a way that is not beneficial to the citizens of this country I find that suspect and think it should be subjected to a great deal of scrutiny.
If you think taxes are just generally immoral, then I'm not going to convince you that using them for X is moral nonetheless. But, you know, I had to smirk a little at the first sentence. Americans are very generous - OK, I guess. Not sure where you get that, but I'll just assume it's in some way true. And don't like being fleeced. Well no ****. You know, like 3 years ago it came to the public's attention that the government and various major corporations - perhaps better discussed as one cooperative self-serving entity - may or may not have been investing in such a way that the financial future of the world was in jeopardy. The government briefly pretended they were doing something about this. And here we are, a few short years later, discussing how thoroughly we believe THE POOR are fleecing us.
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
In what way? That certainly isn't the opinion of the majority. I'm curious why that would make the world a better place.
It sounds like the opinion of someone who did a lot of dope and listened to John Lennon's "Imagine" over and over. "Imagine there's no countries...It isn't hard to do......... Imagine no possessions...." It's likely the problem of someone who got his or her political view from that one song.
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Because we weren't talking about that. I was making a separate point.



What do you mean, "take on more poverty"? You mean, like, can we afford to pay their welfare? I guess that depends on how you look at it. I mean, nothing is forcing our government to guarantee immigrants any welfare. And it's not as if spending on the poor is some relatively massive burden on our budget to begin with. Medicare, SS, and defense spending are most of the budget. You might feel that the poor don't deserve a larger share, or that welfare is inefficient or whatever, but the idea that there is simply NO WAY to direct more aid to the poor is just silly.


By taking on more poverty I mean uneducated, unskilled, labor that for the most part don't even speak our language. We have our own share of citizens that fit that bill, no need to import them. As for SSI, I personally don't see that as an entitlement because people have paid into it. I feel the best way to try to salvage it is through means testing at this point. But medicare and SSI are both necessary programs to take care of our elderly and disabled at this point. But they will have to be revamped in order to be saved.

Our military is essential. I think cuts should be made but I'm sure I won't agree with the way those cuts come about. Those in uniform should not have their pensions cut and the way they are cutting back on the number of troops is scary considering we have 3 war fronts. I think closing a few small bases and opening up government contracts for a fair bidding process would be the way to go. I also think if congressmen and staffers, along with civilian military aren't taking major cuts they need to leave our fighting forces alone and guarantee that they will never have to worry that their checks will be there on time.

But the very idea that we need to cut back on care for OUR disabled, elderly, and military should tell you without doubt that we have absolutely no business taking on any one that doesn't contribute to our society as opposed to taking.


If you think taxes are just generally immoral, then I'm not going to convince you that using them for X is moral nonetheless. But, you know, I had to smirk a little at the first sentence. Americans are very generous - OK, I guess. Not sure where you get that, but I'll just assume it's in some way true. And don't like being fleeced. Well no ****. You know, like 3 years ago it came to the public attention that the government and various major corporations - perhaps better discussed as one cooperative self-serving entity - may or may not have been investing in such a way that the financial future of the world was in jeopardy. The government briefly pretended they were doing something about this. And here we are, a few short years later, discussing how thoroughly we believe THE POOR are fleecing us.
I agree with you about the bailouts and the stimulus. Bush and Obama both bailed out the banks, but at least most of that was paid back. But the stimulus going primarily to unions as a payback was a travesty. Over 3/4 trillion dollars and nothing to show for it. Yet they think cutting 30 billion is an accomplishment. Go figure.

I have nothing against poor people. I was poor myself. I got a degree in behavioral sciences and set my goal to righting a wrong by working with the poor. It didn't take me long to see that the majority weren't willing to help themselves. I retrained and got into a better paying area.

I hate poverty and wish it didn't exist. However, we have to take care of our responsibilities here first. I have volunteered at kennels and of course I wanted to take all the animals home with me rather than seeing them suffer. But guess what, I can't take care of all of them. I just can't. I have 3 dogs now and if I take more...none of them have a decent life. We have to grow up and make RESPONSIBLE choices. Sad but true.

And no I'm not equating humans with dogs...just an example.
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:01 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,387,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It sounds like the opinion of someone who did a lot of dope and listened to John Lennon's "Imagine" over and over. "Imagine there's no countries...It isn't hard to do......... Imagine no possessions...." It's likely the problem of someone who got his or her political view from that one song.

I agree. I used to be there myself too. Used to be.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:26 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,166,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
I agree. I used to be there myself too. Used to be.
The bleeding heart liberals need to grow up and get a clue also.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:38 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,829,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
I agree. I used to be there myself too. Used to be.
Fortunately I never was there. Never has the human race been all about "one world" except during the dictatorships and empires and they fall apart.

Even before there were countries, people lived in tribes that fought one another. It's simply not feasible, never will be. People naturally have different languages, different histories as a people, different cultures as a result.

The "no countries" mentality isn't even what the illegals have. One illegal neighbor of mine even said that he thought maybe there shouldn't be an amnesty because so many Central Americans would show up, he actually said that a Mexican has to have more money to live on, but Central Americans would do his job for less money.

At least the smart illegals really don't believe in allowing the entire world to show up here and take jobs -- because it could even be THEIR jobs someone would take. And then there are the people who believe infinite numbers of jobs can be simply pulled out of the air -- but there's been no evidence of that in several years now.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:10 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,387,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Fortunately I never was there. Never has the human race been all about "one world" except during the dictatorships and empires and they fall apart.

Even before there were countries, people lived in tribes that fought one another. It's simply not feasible, never will be. People naturally have different languages, different histories as a people, different cultures as a result.

The "no countries" mentality isn't even what the illegals have. One illegal neighbor of mine even said that he thought maybe there shouldn't be an amnesty because so many Central Americans would show up, he actually said that a Mexican has to have more money to live on, but Central Americans would do his job for less money.

At least the smart illegals really don't believe in allowing the entire world to show up here and take jobs -- because it could even be THEIR jobs someone would take. And then there are the people who believe infinite numbers of jobs can be simply pulled out of the air -- but there's been no evidence of that in several years now.

Excellent point Malamute. It's pretty sad that they understand that they are taking a job from a citizen yet criticize someone that would do the same thing to them.

Yet we are labeled for recognizing what is going on.
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