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Old 08-12-2011, 11:11 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
In an underminig way that is detremental to the country.
Well, that's kinda the issue here, isn't it? I guess you can just assume the conclusion and dodge the question.

Quote:
They take value away from the country by taking more than they contribute.
If you are upset that people you don't like take free stuff that someone else is giving away, you should probably take it up with the guy giving the stuff away.
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Old 08-12-2011, 11:36 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Well, that's kinda the issue here, isn't it? I guess you can just assume the conclusion and dodge the question.

That does seem to be the game you play.

If you are upset that people you don't like take free stuff that someone else is giving away, you should probably take it up with the guy giving the stuff away.

LOL, at last we have gotten here. It is not that I "don't like" certain people. And yes, taking it up with the guy that is giving away the free stuff (which I pay for) is exactly the solution. By the way, what is "free stuff"? Didn't someone ultimately pay for it?

I have relatives that have paid for our "imaginary lines" with their lives.
Nothing is free. And to minimize that is upsetting.

So again I ask, how do they contribute? Why should AMERICANS want to change their laws to allow something that doesn't make the country better?

Last edited by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?; 08-12-2011 at 11:38 AM.. Reason: Adding the question.
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Old 08-12-2011, 11:43 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Keep handwaving. It doesn't matter who paid for the free stuff - obviously SOMEONE paid for it but the recipients aren't, so it's free TO THEM. The fact is you don't want certain people to get the stuff that's being given away, and that's fine, I'm also a taxpayer, I don't want my taxes wasted either.

But if this is your real concern, deporting immigrants is a pretty horribly inefficient method of achieving it.

In any case, I already answered how they contribute. And honestly, it doesn't matter, because I don't believe anyone needs to satisfy YOUR personal, subjective opinion of "useful" just so they can enter and stay inside the US. If you want to do that with your own personal property then more power to you and I would support you in that.

But the fact is there are Americans that DO value these people (again, the proof of this is that these people HIRE and PAY those immigrants). You're basically saying that your opinion is more important than theirs.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:22 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Keep handwaving. It doesn't matter who paid for the free stuff - obviously SOMEONE paid for it but the recipients aren't, so it's free TO THEM. The fact is you don't want certain people to get the stuff that's being given away, and that's fine, I'm also a taxpayer, I don't want my taxes wasted either.

WTH?

But if this is your real concern, deporting immigrants is a pretty horribly inefficient method of achieving it.

IYO

In any case, I already answered how they contribute. And honestly, it doesn't matter, because I don't believe anyone needs to satisfy YOUR personal, subjective opinion of "useful" just so they can enter and stay inside the US. If you want to do that with your own personal property then more power to you and I would support you in that.


It's not my personal subjective opinion. It is the opinion of the immigration laws of this country that the majority support. It is your personal objective opinion and that of a minority that the laws should be changed.

But the fact is there are Americans that DO value these people (again, the proof of this is that these people HIRE and PAY those immigrants). You're basically saying that your opinion is more important than theirs.
I'm saying that those that ARE hiring them are using taxpayer funded incentives to create those jobs for CITIZENS. The value that these employers find is for their own pocket books. They pay them less so they pocket more. They also leave it up to the general public to then pick up the tax bill for the entitlements they receive as a result. They drive wages down so that citizens, that rightfully own those jobs through the tax incentives that created them, are unemployed and no longer feeding the tax base.

An employer that illegally hires someone that is in this country illegally is not helping this country. Imigration laws are supposed to help the country and the citizens...not the business owners and illegals.

Once AGAIN how do illegals help the COUNTRY, not greedy businessmen?

Last edited by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?; 08-12-2011 at 12:24 PM.. Reason: Adding the question.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:35 PM
 
8,641 posts, read 8,778,597 times
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we have an immagration quota for a reason, if too many people come in, then our infustructure would be super over taxed, and fall apart, as well as other parts of American Socity.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:47 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Seriously, immigration laws have nothing to do with usefulness. Some of them DO talk about particular skills or other arbitrary criteria, but that's different than usefulness.

If someone is willing to pay someone to do work, that is about as objective an indication as we can get that one person finds that useful.

As for entitlements, again, if you think there's a problem with people taking too much stuff, then that sounds like a problem with the entitlement program. So I'm not sure what that has to do with immigration.

As for your "pocketing the savings" argument, it's a pretty tired one. Business owners are, of course, Americans, so you can't even draw the distinction that we should care about AMERICANS not BUSINESS OWNERS. It doesn't make sense. Further, they savings don't just go into those guys pockets. Business owners exist in a competitive market. If they save on labor that means they can (AND DO) offer more competitive prices to their customers. They *have* to, because they want to get more business (those greedy bastards!), and the best way for them to do that is to offer lower prices to their customers (i.e. americans) when they are able to save on inputs such as labor.

Even if they DO "pocket the savings" (which they don't) that money doesn't just go into a black hole. They're going to buy stuff with it.
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Old 08-12-2011, 04:51 PM
 
1,150 posts, read 991,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Well there are various crimes I think should not be crimes, laws I think should not be laws, etc.
That doesn't give you the right to pick and choose which ones you'll follow.
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Old 08-12-2011, 04:56 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayarcy View Post
That doesn't give you the right to pick and choose which ones you'll follow.
I'm not exactly advocating that, I'm advocating for less enforcement.
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:09 PM
 
1,150 posts, read 991,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Yes, I am aware of that.

Do you think such fighting is rational behavior?
So, you think Europe should have done away with it's imaginary lines, and let Hitler roam freely during WWll? You think North America, and Asia should have done away with their imaginary lines, and invited the Japanese in?

Whether those lines keep out warring armies, or illegal aliens, they're necessary. They're to protect a people with a certain culture, language, and government, who don't want another imposed upon them.
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:17 PM
 
1,150 posts, read 991,058 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad;20424313[B
]Illegal immigration in and of itself is not always a crime.[/b] But um, you don't actually believe this sort of ****. So who cares? You obviously don't agree with every law, and I bet you'd rather live in a world where the terrible ones are lightly enforced.
When is it not a crime, when the very word 'illegal' means criminal?
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