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Old 08-12-2011, 08:33 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
So ultimately you are stating that you believe, besides illegal immigration, legal immigration is a net loss to the economy. If you thought it was beneficial, you would leave it in place. That isn´t a position of the government, or many studies, that determine legal immigration on its own is great for this country.

It also shows that if you think legal immigration is a loss despite contrasting data, you could also be wrong on what you perceive the negative impacts of illegal immigration to be...
Don't spin my words! I said in view of the fact that jobs are scarce and our economy is in the tubes it just makes sense to scale back on any new entrants into our country. That's just common sense. I never said a damned thing about legal immigration being a net loss during healthier times. So just stop putting words in my mouth.

 
Old 08-12-2011, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Don't spin my words! I said in view of the fact that jobs are scarce and our economy is in the tubes it just makes sense to scale back on any new entrants into our country. That's just common sense. I never said a damned thing about legal immigration being a net loss during healthier times. So just stop putting words in my mouth.
If you viewed it as beneficial, even a slight amount, by logic it would recover the economy quicker (the best singular improvement for all Americans)...

Why would you cut something where people are following the rules, unable to draw benefits for five years, but have to contribute, along with many other constraints (my list was very easy for me to come up with)?...
 
Old 08-12-2011, 09:29 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
If you viewed it as beneficial, even a slight amount, by logic it would recover the economy quicker (the best singular improvement for all Americans)...

Why would you cut something where people are following the rules, unable to draw benefits for five years, but have to contribute, along with many other constraints (my list was very easy for me to come up with)?...
Are you being dense on purpose? Does it make sense to bring in more foreigners with a bad economy and jobs being scarce? If it does to you then I am truly baffled by that stance.

I view legal immigration as beneficial when we have a healthy economy and jobs are plentiful. What part of that aren't you getting?

It matters not if they follow the rules for legal immigration if we have nothing to offer them when they get here. Why come here if there is no job for them? Just because they may have a relative here willing to sponsor them or take financial responsibility for them is not reason enough for them to come here. Do they want to sit on their duffs all day while their relative cares for them? What kind of life is that?
 
Old 08-12-2011, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
...I view legal immigration as beneficial when we have a healthy economy and jobs are plentiful. What part of that aren't you getting?...
The part where you say they aren´t beneficial when the economy is bad. You´ve stated the same thing a few different ways now. I´m not putting words in your mouth, just phrasing it more clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
...It matters not if they follow the rules for legal immigration if we have nothing to offer them when they get here. Why come here if there is no job for them? Just because they may have a relative here willing to sponsor them or take financial responsibility for them is not reason enough for them to come here. Do they want to sit on their duffs all day while their relative cares for them? What kind of life is that?...
Maybe a better life than what they would have in their home country. They are legally immigrating after all, and would be supported without being on the public dime (not needing to be ¨offered¨ anything). All of a sudden it doesn´t matter when someone follows the rules or not for immigrating?

If they are able to fill a job that an illegal immigrant has now, wouldn´t that be a good thing?...
 
Old 08-13-2011, 06:36 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,967,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The part where you say they aren´t beneficial when the economy is bad. You´ve stated the same thing a few different ways now. I´m not putting words in your mouth, just phrasing it more clearly.



Maybe a better life than what they would have in their home country. They are legally immigrating after all, and would be supported without being on the public dime (not needing to be ¨offered¨ anything). All of a sudden it doesn´t matter when someone follows the rules or not for immigrating?

If they are able to fill a job that an illegal immigrant has now, wouldn´t that be a good thing?...
That is already the case. There is nothing stopping employers from seeking legal foreign workers -- except for the fact that they can easily bring in semi-trailer loads of illegals for much much cheaper.

Why would they bother paying the costs to obtain an H1B visa employee or even the cheap H2A visas when it's so very easy to hire illegals and the laws are not enforced?

Yes, massive illegal immigration hurts those who would like to come legally. And there is no excuse whatsoever for it. H2A visas for example have no caps, the only glitches are an attempt has to be made to hire Americans and legal wages must be paid. But why bother when you can bring in illegals and never have to try to hire Americans or pay legal wages.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 07:28 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The part where you say they aren´t beneficial when the economy is bad. You´ve stated the same thing a few different ways now. I´m not putting words in your mouth, just phrasing it more clearly.



Maybe a better life than what they would have in their home country. They are legally immigrating after all, and would be supported without being on the public dime (not needing to be ¨offered¨ anything). All of a sudden it doesn´t matter when someone follows the rules or not for immigrating?

If they are able to fill a job that an illegal immigrant has now, wouldn´t that be a good thing?...
Why would bringing more people into this country during bad times be beneficial when jobs and resources are not available for them? Why would you even question that or make it out to be a bad thing when that is just plain common sense?

No, this is what you actually said so don't try to back peddle now. Quote: "So ultimately you are stating that you believe, besides illegal immigration, legal immigration is a net loss to the economy" Where did I say that legal immigration is a "net loss" to the economy in a general sense? No, you didn't try to clarify my remarks you put your own spin on them.

I never said that legal immigration wasn't a good thing even though they followed all the rules for coming here. What I said is that we don't need more foreigners here when the state of our nation is not good. No, it wouldn't be a good thing if a legal immigrant were to fill a job that an illegal is holding unless an American citizen couldn't be found to fill that job first. Citizens first! Now again, stop spinning my words!
 
Old 08-13-2011, 09:29 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,967,072 times
Reputation: 22179
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Why would bringing more people into this country during bad times be beneficial when jobs and resources are not available for them? Why would you even question that or make it out to be a bad thing when that is just plain common sense?

No, this is what you actually said so don't try to back peddle now. Quote: "So ultimately you are stating that you believe, besides illegal immigration, legal immigration is a net loss to the economy" Where did I say that legal immigration is a "net loss" to the economy in a general sense? No, you didn't try to clarify my remarks you put your own spin on them.

I never said that legal immigration wasn't a good thing even though they followed all the rules for coming here. What I said is that we don't need more foreigners here when the state of our nation is not good. No, it wouldn't be a good thing if a legal immigrant were to fill a job that an illegal is holding unless an American citizen couldn't be found to fill that job first. Citizens first! Now again, stop spinning my words!
True -- and unfortunately even in these times of high unemployment, there is nothing at all stopping employers from getting work visas for their foreign employees.

There is no good excuse whatsoever to bring in illegals, other than you don't feel like complying with the labor laws. One of the pro-illegals has at least admitted that he simply doesn't believe in certain laws and so doesn't expect to have to abide by them.

For those who respect the laws but despise Americans so much they refuse to hire Americans, they can still bring in their beloved foreign workers through legal visas. Or better yet- there's nothing stopping them from relocating their businesses to the countries of workers they prefer.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 09:37 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
True -- and unfortunately even in these times of high unemployment, there is nothing at all stopping employers from getting work visas for their foreign employees.

There is no good excuse whatsoever to bring in illegals, other than you don't feel like complying with the labor laws. One of the pro-illegals has at least admitted that he simply doesn't believe in certain laws and so doesn't expect to have to abide by them.

For those who respect the laws but despise Americans so much they refuse to hire Americans, they can still bring in their beloved foreign workers through legal visas. Or better yet- there's nothing stopping them from relocating their businesses to the countries of workers they prefer.
That's just it. We have lost a lot of jobs through outsourcing also. So what few jobs there are should go to legal or illegal immigrants rather than citizens? I don't think so!
 
Old 08-13-2011, 09:54 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 793,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
Americans CANT be deported. Illegal aliens CAN and SHOULD be deported.
But Americans CAN be kidnapped and dropped off in Siberia.

Now, given that, if someone were to do that to you, then you would no longer be able to commit crimes in the US, agree or disagree?

The point here is that we're having a normative discussion. People are talking about how they think things SHOULD be when they say "IF we deported them all, THEN they couldn't do XYZ." You can't just flip-flop from that sort of hypothetical future-tense discussion to a positive, status-quo-based "but that's not possible" crybaby tactic once the discussion goes somewhere that makes you uncomfortable.

Well, you CAN, it's just not a valid argument. And I'll point it out as the debate-dodging technique it is.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Why would bringing more people into this country during bad times be beneficial when jobs and resources are not available for them? Why would you even question that or make it out to be a bad thing when that is just plain common sense?...
If someone is legally here, contributing by paying taxes, but unable to draw any benefits, isn't that a net gain to the economy?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
...No, this is what you actually said so don't try to back peddle now. Quote: "So ultimately you are stating that you believe, besides illegal immigration, legal immigration is a net loss to the economy" Where did I say that legal immigration is a "net loss" to the economy in a general sense? No, you didn't try to clarify my remarks you put your own spin on them...
Does legal immigration shift from being beneficial when the economy is good (your definition: "plentiful jobs") to not being beneficial when the economy is bad?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
...I never said that legal immigration wasn't a good thing even though they followed all the rules for coming here. What I said is that we don't need more foreigners here when the state of our nation is not good. No, it wouldn't be a good thing if a legal immigrant were to fill a job that an illegal is holding unless an American citizen couldn't be found to fill that job first. Citizens first! Now again, stop spinning my words!
My comment was whether it was a "good" thing for a legal immigrant to have that job, not whether it was the best thing. If the American wants an unreasonable wage and benefits to do the job, can the legal immigrant still be hired? When you want to reduce legal immigration because of illegal immigration, you need to be more clear in your own words as to prevent speculation why.
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