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Old 08-13-2011, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
But Americans CAN be kidnapped and dropped off in Siberia.

Now, given that, if someone were to do that to you, then you would no longer be able to commit crimes in the US, agree or disagree?

The point here is that we're having a normative discussion. People are talking about how they think things SHOULD be when they say "IF we deported them all, THEN they couldn't do XYZ." You can't just flip-flop from that sort of hypothetical future-tense discussion to a positive, status-quo-based "but that's not possible" crybaby tactic once the discussion goes somewhere that makes you uncomfortable.

Well, you CAN, it's just not a valid argument. And I'll point it out as the debate-dodging technique it is.
Stop with the hypothetical BS, and deal with reality. If illegal aliens were not in this country, countless citizens would still be alive. That’s a FACT. Would people still be killed by drunk drivers? Of course. But, those killed by illegals would have been spared. End of story.

 
Old 08-13-2011, 01:40 PM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,558,236 times
Reputation: 9494
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Which they could do here just fine as well if it were possible to get blue collar type work visas.
Too many real Americans out of work. Sorry Jose.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
If the American wants an unreasonable wage and benefits to do the job, can the legal immigrant still be hired? When you want to reduce legal immigration because of illegal immigration, you need to be more clear in your own words as to prevent speculation why.
Who are you to dictate what are or are not “reasonable” wages and benefits? Moreover, why are you and your group so hell-bent on depressing the wages of U.S. citizens? Aren’t you included in the U.S. workforce? So, wouldn’t that also impact your wages and benefits? Wages have already plummeted. Will you only be satisfied when the average U.S. citizens’ wages are on par with those of the “slave” labor in China?
 
Old 08-13-2011, 01:56 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,840,989 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Who are you to dictate what are or are not “reasonable” wages and benefits? Moreover, why are you and your group so hell-bent on depressing the wages of U.S. citizens? Aren’t you included in the U.S. workforce? So, wouldn’t that also impact your wages and benefits? Wages have already plummeted. Will you only be satisfied when the average U.S. citizens’ wages are on par with those of the “slave” labor in China?
Good point. If someone believes the wages of the typical American are way too high, they can certainly find lower wages nations to which they could emigrate to. No one is forcing the low-wage lovers to stay here.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,020,887 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Who are you to dictate what are or are not “reasonable” wages and benefits? Moreover, why are you and your group so hell-bent on depressing the wages of U.S. citizens? Aren’t you included in the U.S. workforce? So, wouldn’t that also impact your wages and benefits? Wages have already plummeted. Will you only be satisfied when the average U.S. citizens’ wages are on par with those of the “slave” labor in China?
Part of that ¨U.S. workforce¨ is Legal Permanent Residents. I have no impact on general wage levels within the United States, but I am asking in a scenario of a job if a U.S. citizen would want double what the market can bear*. Does the job have to go to a U.S. citizen instead of a legal immigrant?

* A few days ago ¨chicagonut¨ related that ¨skilled jobs¨ in the construction industry, like a drywall hanger, were now at ¨half¨ the wages they used to be...
 
Old 08-13-2011, 03:44 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 791,268 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Stop with the hypothetical BS, and deal with reality. If illegal aliens were not in this country, countless citizens would still be alive. That’s a FACT. Would people still be killed by drunk drivers? Of course. But, those killed by illegals would have been spared. End of story.
Here's some more reality: if the same number of US citizens were removed, countless other citizens would still be alive. That's a FACT.

In other words: there's nothing special about illegals that indicates they're more likely to kill than US citizens.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 03:45 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 791,268 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Who are you to dictate what are or are not “reasonable” wages and benefits? Moreover, why are you and your group so hell-bent on depressing the wages of U.S. citizens? Aren’t you included in the U.S. workforce? So, wouldn’t that also impact your wages and benefits? Wages have already plummeted. Will you only be satisfied when the average U.S. citizens’ wages are on par with those of the “slave” labor in China?
He's not "dictating" what wages are reasonable. Clearly he means "competitve" as determined by the marketplace.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 04:17 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
Reputation: 2130
[quote=IBMMuseum;20439688]If someone is legally here, contributing by paying taxes, but unable to draw any benefits, isn't that a net gain to the economy?...

Yes, but when jobs are scarce as they are now those jobs should go to Americans first and in turn the American would be paying taxes. How many times do I have to repeat that to you?

Does legal immigration shift from being beneficial when the economy is good (your definition: "plentiful jobs") to not being beneficial when the economy is bad?...

It isn't about being beneficial. It is holding jobs that Americans should have first dibs on when the economy is bad. See above for the umpteenth time.

My comment was whether it was a "good" thing for a legal immigrant to have that job, not whether it was the best thing. If the American wants an unreasonable wage and benefits to do the job, can the legal immigrant still be hired? When you want to reduce legal immigration because of illegal immigration, you need to be more clear in your own words as to prevent speculation why.

A legal immigrant should get paid the same as an American which is the going rate for a job. What makes you think that an American would charge more or expect more? I think I have been very clear. As long as the economy is bad, jobs are scarce and we have millions of illegal aliens in our country holding needed jobs then perhaps we should cut back the numbers of legal immigrants until all of the above is resolved. Sorry you don't agree but my views are based on what is best for Americans, not immigrants.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 04:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Part of that ¨U.S. workforce¨ is Legal Permanent Residents. I have no impact on general wage levels within the United States, but I am asking in a scenario of a job if a U.S. citizen would want double what the market can bear*. Does the job have to go to a U.S. citizen instead of a legal immigrant?

* A few days ago ¨chicagonut¨ related that ¨skilled jobs¨ in the construction industry, like a drywall hanger, were now at ¨half¨ the wages they used to be...
And that depressing of construction wages was due to illegal aliens, not legal immigrants.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 04:33 PM
 
951 posts, read 617,593 times
Reputation: 89
Like a drywaller deserves $25-$30/hr. lol.
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