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Old 08-16-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, it's nothing like how I feel my parents' rights should be protected under the law, because I feel that their rights should be identical to everyone else's. The "difference" you don't see is that while I care about my friends and family more than the average person, I recognize that this is the result of amoral personal biases, and thus I don't believe any of them should receive different treatment under the law. You are saying you DO believe people you care about more personally should be afforded more rights. Surely you can see that difference.
Perhaps you should re-read his post. He said “protected.” He did not even remotely imply that they should receive “different” treatment. Nor did he say they should be afforded “more” rights. Now, would you care to appropriately respond to his post?

 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You missed the point entirely. Never even hinted that citizens as awhole were good inspite of the few bad apples and illegals as a whole are bad because there are bad apples.
I said That the illegal groups has already demonstrated that they dont care about our laws.That they care more about personal gain than obeying our laws just as all criminals do. This would indicate at least to me that they are not the best choice for immigrants i would want to enter this country.
The better choice would be people even from the same country as those illegals who apply and wait their turn to enter legally.
My position is and always has been its not the nation of origin that is in question, but the total disregard for our laws by illegals. This disregard is what makes them as a group bad.
Thank you!
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:08 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,006,126 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Perhaps you should re-read his post. He said “protected.” He did not even remotely imply that they should receive “different” treatment. Nor did he say they should be afforded “more” rights. Now, would you care to appropriately respond to his post?
I did.

You yourself said that because you care more about American citizens, you believe the government should afford them more rights. Is that not correct?
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:08 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,384,747 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Very well stated. I’d rep you if I could.

Thank you. I love your posts too. You always bring valued links to the table that back up our positions.

It's really fun to have debates with people but when all they have is namecalling and word twisting it can get tiresome.

But I also come to see the links others have found and I appreciate all who share them. Thanks to all that contribute to these conversations in a meaningful way.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:09 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,949 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You missed the point entirely. Never even hinted that citizens as awhole were good inspite of the few bad apples and illegals as a whole are bad because there are bad apples.
that's different than what I suggested.

Quote:
I said That the illegal groups has already demonstrated that they dont care about our laws.That they care more about personal gain than obeying our laws just as all criminals do. This would indicate at least to me that they are not the best choice for immigrants i would want to enter this country.
Like, say, speeders, right? They care more about their personal gain of getting places faster than obeying our laws.

Quote:
The better choice would be people even from the same country as those illegals who apply and wait their turn to enter legally.
Actually, this would be a good point (not great but at least somewhat respectible)... if there were actually a line they could get into. But there isn't. THERE IS NO LINE. THERE'S NO "TURN" TO WAIT FOR. In fact, this is pretty much exactly what I'm advocating. Open up a line. Let people get in it.

Quote:
My position is and always has been its not the nation of origin that is in question, but the total disregard for our laws by illegals. This disregard is what makes them as a group bad.
like speeders, right?
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:11 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,739,847 times
Reputation: 22159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You missed the point entirely. Never even hinted that citizens as awhole were good inspite of the few bad apples and illegals as a whole are bad because there are bad apples.
I said That the illegal groups has already demonstrated that they dont care about our laws.That they care more about personal gain than obeying our laws just as all criminals do. This would indicate at least to me that they are not the best choice for immigrants i would want to enter this country.
The better choice would be people even from the same country as those illegals who apply and wait their turn to enter legally.
My position is and always has been its not the nation of origin that is in question, but the total disregard for our laws by illegals. This disregard is what makes them as a group bad.
I would think one of the number one qualities of a potential citizen would be a willingness to abide by the laws of this country, not to mention learning it's language and culture.

When all you can do is ignore the laws, believe you are above the laws, even laws like felony document fraud when you figure you can use stolen identity documents, that doesn't seem like a good starting point for a desireable citizen.

And when you are willing to pay violent criminal organizations like the drug cartels to help you break the laws of this country -- it would be difficult to claim you're good citizen material.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,892,472 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
that's different than what I suggested.



Like, say, speeders, right? They care more about their personal gain of getting places faster than obeying our laws.



Actually, this would be a good point (not great but at least somewhat respectible)... if there were actually a line they could get into. But there isn't. THERE IS NO LINE. THERE'S NO "TURN" TO WAIT FOR. In fact, this is pretty much exactly what I'm advocating. Open up a line. Let people get in it.



like speeders, right?
No like any common thief actually. Which we already produce enough of and dont need anymore. Thank you tho you made my point. As you stated we have legal citizens who are criminals. We dont need anymore.
There is absolutely a line.
People fill out the applications. Millions each year. It takes time to process the applications often years of back log. Yes their is a line.
Go to a US embassy mon thru fri. What you will see is a line outside. People waiting their turn to be interviewed. Yes I stood in this line with my wife.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Thank you. I love your posts too. You always bring valued links to the table that back up our positions.

It's really fun to have debates with people but when all they have is namecalling and word twisting it can get tiresome.

But I also come to see the links others have found and I appreciate all who share them. Thanks to all that contribute to these conversations in a meaningful way.
Thanks.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:37 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,384,747 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
No, it's nothing like how I feel my parents' rights should be protected under the law, because I feel that their rights should be identical to everyone else's. The "difference" you don't see is that while I care about my friends and family more than the average person, I recognize that this is the result of amoral personal biases, and thus I don't believe any of them should receive different treatment under the law. You are saying you DO believe people you care about more personally should be afforded more rights. Surely you can see that difference.

No, I'm saying all citizens of the United States should be treated equally under the law. Where did I say one citizen should have more rights than another? I'm glad that you recognize that laws are in place to protect our rights. They are the laws of this country to protect the citizens of this country and as citizens we all should enjoy those protections equally.

But laws change within different countries. That only makes sense because we all have different cultures and beliefs. And I believe all people that are citizens of other countries should have equal protection within their system of laws too.

We don't live under a worldwide government. Every nation has their own laws to protect their citizens. I guess that is due to what you find an irrational amoral personal bias. But that isn't reality.

Surely you can understand that.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I did.

You yourself said that because you care more about American citizens, you believe the government should afford them more rights. Is that not correct?
Our government does afford more rights and privileges to citizens than non-citizens. Every country does. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. My comments were in response to your reply to Isitmeorarethingsnuts? If you can’t respond to his post according to comments he actually made, so be it.
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