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Old 08-28-2011, 10:02 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy5 View Post
American breaks a law: he doesn't respect that one law. If an American breaks a speeding law, it has nothing to do with any other law because he is a legal citizen.

Immigrant breaks a law: he doesn't respect ANY laws. Because when a 'Criminal Illegal Alien' breaks a law it is at least the second law he has broken. If it's while driving even more. Almost Everything he does is illegal.
This only holds if "all laws" are directly related to immigration status. They're not. Immigration laws have "nothing to do" with the vast majority of US laws. The fact that some are related still doesn't give you the logical foundation to make the leap to "he doesn't respect ANY laws."

Does someone who speeds WHILE not wearing a seatbelt (breaking TWO LAWS ZOMG) suddenly jump from "he doesn't respect THAT law" to "he doesn't respect ANY laws"?

 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:13 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
The first bolded isn't true as I've already stated in this thread. Roughly 1/3 of all illegals use some sort of welfare, that's no where near a majority.

The second bolded is again false since 43% of the ones with kids AREN'T EVEN USING ANY WELFARE. These figures are according to Benicar's links.

I'm pretty sure there is a term for someone who constantly says false things about a group despite facts and reality showing otherwise.

If only one third are using welfare than obviously two thirds are working illegally. Either way, it costs the taxpayers money they can't afford.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I've mentioned here before that it'd be pretty easy to offer citizenship with the qualifier that you would be ineligible for programs X, Y, and Z. Surprise - no one here supported it, even though it directly addresses their biggest complaint.

Accept for the jobs issue.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:17 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Dodging the question noted.
No -- but it's a stupid question. Do I as an American citizen have all the same rights as Swedish citizens in Sweden, or Mexican citizens in Mexico, or Spanish citizens in Spain?

Of course I don't, I shouldn't and they should not have all the rights of American citizens either.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:18 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy5 View Post
American breaks a law: he doesn't respect that one law.True

Immigrant breaks a law: he doesn't respect ANY laws.True

Here you go.

American breaks a law: he doesn't respect that one law. If an American breaks a speeding law, it has nothing to do with any other law because he is a legal citizen.

Immigrant breaks a law: he doesn't respect ANY laws. Because when a 'Criminal Illegal Alien' breaks a law it is at least the second law he has broken. If it's while driving even more. Almost Everything he does is illegal.

If a citizen breaks the law by speeding he pays the fine and has paid his debt to society.

If an illegal is caught in the country he should pay his debt to society and be deported.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:24 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
If only one third are using welfare than obviously two thirds are working illegally. Either way, it costs the taxpayers money they can't afford.
Or dealing drugs or other criminal activities. Many illegals are living in our prisons, they make up a very big chunk of our prison population and so are extremely costly to the taxpayers.

A third is really a lot when you consider how that third is made up almost exclusively of women and that most of those women have to give birth here when they cannot afford to have children so have them at taxpayer expense. And these children have dead beat illegal fathers out there somewhere who are NOT supporting their children but letting the taxpayers support them. That's an indirect welfare benefit to those males, but also many of those males are shacked up in government housing with these ladies on welfare.

A third of illegals are not even here to work obviously -- at least maybe we could start deporting THEM.

One couple who used to live near me -- they lived as husband and wife but not legally married so that she could easily collect welfare for their 4 kids. He worked some but not much - he didn't need to work much because he could live in the same house the government gave to his common law wife and kids, he could eat the food she bought with food stamps and WIC and he wasn't held responsible for any of the pediatrician and maternity care, nor for any of the support of his family.

So she was in the 1/3 of illegals living off welfare handouts, he counts as one of the 2/3 not directly on welfare but benefitting all the same. In fact that's why he could do those low paying jobs and only do them when he felt like it -- or needed beer money.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:26 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
If a citizen breaks the law by speeding he pays the fine and has paid his debt to society.

If an illegal is caught in the country he should pay his debt to society and be deported.
What does this have to do with the "respect for this/any law" question?
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:41 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Let's actually not think of citizens first, since the value of a person isn't dependent on citizenship.

The value of a person also should not be based upon who your parents are. But since I'm not a child of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet I don't have access to all the amenities in life that they have. Those amenities are reserved for their children.

It doesn't mean I am less of a person, just that my life will involve different circumstances.

Some children are born addicted to crack. It isn't fair to them. But the only way to try to correct that problem is to outlaw crack. And by doing so you are using a law to try and prevent that from happening. And we know you don't like laws.

A person that is born in a different country isn't intrinsically inferior in any way. They just live within different circumstances. There value as a person is irrelevant to the debate.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:47 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,005,489 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
The value of a person also should not be based upon who your parents are. But since I'm not a child of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet I don't have access to all the amenities in life that they have. Those amenities are reserved for their children.

It doesn't mean I am less of a person, just that my life will involve different circumstances.

Some children are born addicted to crack. It isn't fair to them. But the only way to try to correct that problem is to outlaw crack. And by doing so you are using a law to try and prevent that from happening. And we know you don't like laws.

A person that is born in a different country isn't intrinsically inferior in any way. They just live within different circumstances. There value as a person is irrelevant to the debate.
I agree with this, I invoked the value of a person because Benicar was talking about moral obligations. If you want to talk about, for example, efficient or practical allocations of resources, it's obviously a different question.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 10:56 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
What does this have to do with the "respect for this/any law" question?

It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with respect. It has to do with abiding by the law. I have to follow a lot of laws that I don't agree with or respect. But the key is I have to abide by them just the same.

If a citizen is caught robbing a bank, in a stolen car, and using a weapon to commit the crime...he is charged with all those crimes, not just robbing the bank.

If an illegal is caught in this country he should be deported, the punishment that is afforded that crime, and also his assets should be seized to pay for the cost of the deportation. If a drug dealer is busted his assets are seized because they were gained in an unlawful manner.
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