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Old 09-01-2011, 06:10 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
So you don't have an answer to my question? Immigration does not equal my right to read whatever book I want. I'll ask again.

Why do you feel that we need to make it easier to let the illiterate, poor Juan del Pueblo emigrate into this country when we already have tens of millions of impoverished African-Americans here already?
My question IS the answer. Of course immigration does not "equal" your right to read a book. The point is that you don't have to demonstrate some benefit to me BECAUSE I don't have a right to supervise and approve your reading material.

Let's take your particular counter and extend the reasoning. Why should we let the impoverished african-americans have jobs in this economy when we have poor white folks that need jobs?

In other words, why do you think one group of human beings is better than some other group?

 
Old 09-01-2011, 06:11 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Yes, Americans do have a right to read a book in their own country. You're really side stepping the issue again, aren't you? One can have a "diverse" view (most people in this case would call it bizarre, however) but if I don't agree with that "diverse" view I will tell them so. Why don't you? Or is it that you agree with their "diverse" view of allowing everyone in the world to come here that wants to?
I consider the idea that YOU should have some veto power over other people's movement that doesn't involve your personal property to be quite bizzare and based in some warped entitlement mentality.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
My question IS the answer. Of course immigration does not "equal" your right to read a book. The point is that you don't have to demonstrate some benefit to me BECAUSE I don't have a right to supervise and approve your reading material.

Let's take your particular counter and extend the reasoning. Why should we let the impoverished african-americans have jobs in this economy when we have poor white folks that need jobs?

In other words, why do you think one group of human beings is better than some other group?
The answer is simple. We have no responsibility to provide for foreign nationals and every responsibility to provide for our own needs. Its not a matter of being better than they are. Its a matter of we have our own problems and we need to address our own issues.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I consider the idea that YOU should have some veto power over other people's movement that doesn't involve your personal property to be quite bizzare and based in some warped entitlement mentality.
many would say that is the pro-illegals that have the entitlment mentality. Illegals are entitled to a path to citizenship? based on what? wishful thinking ? If there wasn't borders then ___________?
Reality is that there are borders and there are laws and there are rights of a nation to determine the laws they enfoorce.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 08:49 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The answer is simple. We have no responsibility to provide for foreign nationals and every responsibility to provide for our own needs. Its not a matter of being better than they are. Its a matter of we have our own problems and we need to address our own issues.
I think that's fine. Provide for your own needs, control your own property. Using force to keep competition away from you isn't part of that, though.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
49 posts, read 59,356 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Obvious truth? You assume the conclusion. Shocking.
Whatever. I meant that you should be able to see the opposing argument as a pretty strong one by now. Maybe "obvious truth" was a poor choice of words. You didn't strike me as someone who likes to make a whole lot of sense, so I didn't think it would matter

Quote:
Ok, cool. So if we made it simple and easy for people to immigrate, then they wouldn't be breaking the law. What would your objection be if we did that?
But why would I want to make it any easier? We have nothing to gain and there are loads of people becoming legitimate legal citizens all the time. It's a fairly common occurrence as it is. Sure, there are many worthy decent individuals who won't... but if you want to debate that topic then that's a whole new conversation in and of itself. My point here is there's nothing wrong with the standard immigration process when it's done correctly. It brings the right people in and keeps the bad ones out. It maintains order. It helps to control national population growth. It's even supposed to prevent more immigrants from staying than the current citizens and their government want. Don't the they have any say in how many people they're forced to share their community with? I believe that if somebody has a legitimate reason to stay permanently, they can. There are even such things as the green card lottery for goodness sake! No reason to make up crazy laws that don't make sense. People have always been moving to this country, but there are important procedures that need to be followed and respected. I know you say I sound like a broken record, but I really don't see how that argument isn't enough for you. Are we just doing whatever the hell we want now? If you have a craving to do something nice for humanity, why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or something? It's not our responsibility to be the world's caretaker!

The PROBLEM is that illegals don't follow those rules. They HOPE people will let things slide, so they can get their way without going through the normal process. They have no interest in what's good for the country they're moving to. Then they have the nerve to make demands. I don't see how that's in any way fair. And you seem to want to encourage that kind of behavior. Bravo! *slow sarcastic clapping*

Quote:
OK, so I'm cool with this. I'm pretty much opposed to government giveaways for the most part.

The thing is, I don't see you here complaining about social welfare programs. I see you complaining about CERTAIN PEOPLE using them. If your problem is with socialism, then you shouldn't be wasting time in a thread about illegal immigration, which is just a fraction of the "problem."
Fine, whatever. If I see another thread advocating socialism in the U.S. I'll consider voicing my opinion against it. Don't worry

Quote:
What policies do you think I'm advocating?

Are you saying that the US should have turned your parents away? Why does the US owe YOU anything?
1.) I was actually surprised when you said you don't like government giveaways. I had you pegged for a hippy socialist type before. Now I have no idea what you're all about to be honest. All I know is you want to give illegals a free education at the expense of law abiding citizens.

2.) No, I'm saying that standard immigration procedures must be followed and my family once did just that. My parents were never, at any point in time, illegals. They may have been in the same basic situation as them initially, but they chose to go a different route and did everything by the book. Even though they ran the risk of getting sent back. They were both proud people with strong values and they taught me the importance of respecting the place I live in. Those who do otherwise should not be tolerated, much less rewarded.

3.) I'm not even going to bother to answer the other question, as it's just plain silly. Nearly everyone has ancestors who came here as immigrants at one point or another. Mine were just more recent. You might as well pose the same question to anyone here who's not Native American. But that doesn't mean that the whole world should be given incentives to come here illegally.

Quote:
Well, you haven't done a particularly great or interesting job of arguing (just the same old tired "ITS THE LAWWWWWW!!!" platitudes), so I am not exactly heartbroken to hear this.
Awesome, glad to hear it. I'm already breaking my vow of silence by responding to you this once, so I'm sure you won't be disappointed when I actually keep it this next time around. Please do us both a favor and don't reply.

Peace.

Last edited by GimmeMts; 09-01-2011 at 09:10 PM..
 
Old 09-01-2011, 10:21 PM
 
5,903 posts, read 6,352,776 times
Reputation: 5447
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Oh really? And how many taxes do people making around minimum wage make, pay to the government?
Just narrowing in on public education alone, it costs approx $ 9000 per student. Is min wage enough to cover one child, let alone multiple kids. Now factor in welfare and healthcare.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 07:48 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by VLWH View Post
Just narrowing in on public education alone, it costs approx $ 9000 per student. Is min wage enough to cover one child, let alone multiple kids. Now factor in welfare and healthcare.
Yes, and Americans need to provide the the American kids.

Just because millions of people made their own country a mess does not entitle them to ours.

Cut them off all the government handouts including the free meals at our schools and many will stop showing up here. They come here illegally because it's so very easy to do and they have it very easy here.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 08:52 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 788,884 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by GimmeMts View Post
Whatever. I meant that you should be able to see the opposing argument as a pretty strong one by now.
Yes, that's the same thing. You're just asserting that you're right and everyone else is wrong. That's not very convincing.

Quote:
But why would I want to make it any easier? We have nothing to gain and there are loads of people becoming legitimate legal citizens all the time. It's a fairly common occurrence as it is. Sure, there are many worthy decent individuals who won't... but if you want to debate that topic then that's a whole new conversation in and of itself. My point here is there's nothing wrong with the standard immigration process when it's done correctly. It brings the right people in and keeps the bad ones out. It maintains order. It helps to control national population growth. It's even supposed to prevent more immigrants from staying than the current citizens and their government want. Don't the they have any say in how many people they're forced to share their community with? I believe that if somebody has a legitimate reason to stay permanently, they can. There are even such things as the green card lottery for goodness sake! No reason to make up crazy laws that don't make sense. People have always been moving to this country, but there are important procedures that need to be followed and respected. I know you say I sound like a broken record, but I really don't see how that argument isn't enough for you. Are we just doing whatever the hell we want now? If you have a craving to do something nice for humanity, why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or something? It's not our responsibility to be the world's caretaker!
See, I don't believe you should have some right to decide what's a "legitimate" reason for people to move, or what the "correct" number is just because you were born in one area and the other guy wasn't.

We don't let the residents of Michigan decide if Ohioans are "good enough" to move to Michigan, or vice versa. Should Michigan be forced to be the caretaker for Ohio?? What if Michigan residents decide they like the number of people they share their community with now. Should they be able to keep Ohio residents from moving in?

I'm not asking you to be the world's caretaker. I'm asking you to mind your own business.

Would you support much easier immigration if there were immigrant-paid background and health checks plus a welfare waiver? Basically we would accept anyone that isn't a felon and isn't sick.

The fact that YOU don't see anything "wrong" with the current process doesn't mean it's just or couldn't be improved.

Quote:
The PROBLEM is that illegals don't follow those rules. They HOPE people will let things slide, so they can get their way without going through the normal process. They have no interest in what's good for the country they're moving to. Then they have the nerve to make demands. I don't see how that's in any way fair. And you seem to want to encourage that kind of behavior. Bravo! *slow sarcastic clapping*
I'm suggesting a different process. I'm not suggesting people should continue to ignore the current, broken process. Now, the process I outlined above addresses this "they don't follow the rules" complaint.

Quote:
2.) No, I'm saying that standard immigration procedures must be followed and my family once did just that. My parents were never, at any point in time, illegals. They may have been in the same basic situation as them initially, but they chose to go a different route and did everything by the book. Even though they ran the risk of getting sent back. They were both proud people with strong values and they taught me the importance of respecting the place I live in. Those who do otherwise should not be tolerated, much less rewarded.
Yes, I realize your parents were not illegals. The process was WILDLY different then. Saying they chose a different route is hilarious. I mean, technically it's correct, they did everything by the book. But if your parents were coming TODAY, there is very little chance they'd get in, unless they happen to be wealthy and can effectively buy their way in. There's no "line" to get in (yes, there's a fake line that we tell people to get in, but it never moves). There's no book to follow.

And now that you're here, well, NOW we've got "enough" immigrants. How convenient.

Quote:
I'm not even going to bother to answer the other question, as it's just plain silly. Nearly everyone has ancestors who came here as immigrants at one point or another. Mine were just more recent. You might as well pose the same question to anyone here who's not Native American. But that doesn't mean that the whole world should be given incentives to come here illegally.
I DO pose that same question to everyone. Why does "the US" owe YOU anything? I don't see any reason. Ignoring this question is effectively proving my point.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 10:20 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The answer is simple. We have no responsibility to provide for foreign nationals and every responsibility to provide for our own needs. Its not a matter of being better than they are. Its a matter of we have our own problems and we need to address our own issues.
Exactly.

I find it funny the question of you would do the same in their place. Yeah well they would do the same in ours. I daresay a group of Americans who moved to Mexico would be firmly told to get the frick out if they dared demand anything from Mexicans.

The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Yes, and Americans need to provide the the American kids.

Just because millions of people made their own country a mess does not entitle them to ours.

Cut them off all the government handouts including the free meals at our schools and many will stop showing up here. They come here illegally because it's so very easy to do and they have it very easy here.
This is true. They don't have to learn a foreign language. We do. They don't have to pay for their education. We do. They don't have to get a driver's license. We do. They don't have to pay their hospital bills. We do.

Enough already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
But this is a mischaracterization.

A) you didn't say "illegals are skipping lines". What you said is:



I'm not trying to justify people skipping lines. I'm saying "the line" should be easier to go through so people don't skip it in the first place. For the vast majority of people, there IS NO LINE anyway. "The line" (as it exists currently) is specifically constructed in such a way that it effectively doesn't allow anyone in. So this "just get in line" handwave is a total sham. "the line" doesn't address the issue AT ALL. It just gives you a convenient way to avoid confronting the issue.
Of course you are justifying people skipping lines. If there is no line for the vast majority of people that is because they don't have the job skills or education we need. If I won't apply to Harvard for admission because I don't have the qualifications to attend Harvard should I go around whining that Harvard sucks because they won't let me in?

The rest of your assertions are simply lies. Americans let in millions of people. We just prefer not to let in people who are likely to be a burden. That's the issue right there. We don't need people who are not likely to be net economic contributors. I do not want want people who are likely to raise my taxes. If you do then go ahead and donate your money. But keep your hands out of my pocket. I do not want to work any harder to support foreign nationals and their economic dreams. Most Americans don't either. The foreign nationals have no moral or legal standing to demand that we do.

Quote:

Of course, every credible source and basic logic says otherwise. Illegals pay taxes. It's IMPOSSIBLE for them to avoid them. And besides, if you actually think they don't pay taxes, legalizing them would address this problem.
Most illegals are high school drop outs from Mexico or Guatemala. They earn very little and pay very in taxes. Giving them legal status will only grant them access to the EITC and even more American tax dollars. There's no reason to tell every single member of the underclass over there that they can come here and get access to our tax dollars. Unless of course you're not a tax payer and you just don't care and you have an alternative agenda. That would explain matters.

Quote:
Do you think poor white people are picking your pockets? Are you going to step up and support cutting them off?
I don't think in terms of race the way you do. Sorry. I'm Jewish. Race actually has just about nothing to do with my identity. I do not see the world that way. I'm really sorry you seem completely obssessed with it. You really ought to think about getting help for your clear inability to think about people other than by their superficial and irrelevant skin tones. Race is very much a social construct rather than a biological one. You might want to remember that and perhaps read something other than bad books.

I think we should have safety nets here. I don't think we're responsible for providing for the rest of the world. You can't just single out a handful of Americans and tell them they owe the world's billion poor people economic support.
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