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Old 09-13-2011, 11:20 AM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Have you interacted with 12-30 million illegals? I think not.
lol

You asked for my experience. You got it.

Quote:
Perhaps you shouldn’t make statements you know you cannot support. It was YOU who claimed the vast majority of illegals do not commit “other” crimes. Now, AGAIN, where is your proof? And, please explain what constitutes “other” crimes. It certainly can’t be ID theft, fraud, DUIs, rape, murder, or pedophilia. I await your list.
True, I don't have proof.

are you suggesting that until we have data we should just assume immigrants are all rapists and murderers?

I don't have proof that YOU aren't a murderer...

Guilty until proven innocent! The (new) American way!

 
Old 09-13-2011, 12:32 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
You can't compare apples & Oranges.
This is, in fact, patently false. You can compare apples to oranges it just depends on the context in which they are being compared. If we are having a discussion about the relative sweetness of various fruits, for instance, we most certainly can compare apples to oranges. If, during this discussion, you were adamant that oranges were sweeter than apples and I were to respond by saying, "We can't compare oranges to apples because Apples are red and oranges aren't!" My response could accurately be labeled as idiotic because a visual distinction between fruits is irrelevant to distinctions of taste that the discussion was about.

Similarly, when discussing whether or not a person's lack of respect for certain laws implies a lack of respect for all or other laws, which is a discussion focused on human motivations and moral convictions, stating that one group of people can't be compared to another group of people because of a legal distinction without any kind of explanation as to why the legal distinction is not irroneous to the discussion is idiotic.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,343 posts, read 16,290,366 times
Reputation: 14073
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Because experience shows us that the vast majority of them do respect the other laws.
Link please? If that was even remotely true, why are such a large percentageof criminals in prison illegals (criminal aliens)?
 
Old 09-13-2011, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
lol

You asked for my experience. You got it.
Yes. And, your experience is extremely limited. I know lots of people, but none are murderers. Does that mean murderers don’t exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
True, I don't have proof.

are you suggesting that until we have data we should just assume immigrants are all rapists and murderers?
Of course not. But, neither should we assume they are all here innocently working to feed their families. In addition, some of the so-called “hardworking” illegals, such as day laborers and crop pickers have been convicted of violent crimes. Unfortunately, due to our pandering government, we have no idea what percentage of illegals may pose a threat to this country. Sadly, we must wait for them to actually rape, maim, or kill, and simply hope they don’t flee the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
I don't have proof that YOU aren't a murderer...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Guilty until proven innocent! The (new) American way!
Oh please. If anything, the “new” American way is to coddle illegal foreigners, and allow them to violate our laws with impunity. Why should we be forced to wait for them to prove they’re also violent? Moreover, why should we jeopardize innocent lives for the sake of cheap labor, political correctness, and potential votes for worthless politicians? There is absolutely no excuse for the shameful failure of the U.S. government to protect this country from foreign invaders, violent or otherwise.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 12:56 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,099,270 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
This is, in fact, patently false. You can compare apples to oranges it just depends on the context in which they are being compared. If we are having a discussion about the relative sweetness of various fruits, for instance, we most certainly can compare apples to oranges. If, during this discussion, you were adamant that oranges were sweeter than apples and I were to respond by saying, "We can't compare oranges to apples because Apples are red and oranges aren't!" My response could accurately be labeled as idiotic because a visual distinction between fruits is irrelevant to distinctions of taste that the discussion was about.

Similarly, when discussing whether or not a person's lack of respect for certain laws implies a lack of respect for all or other laws, which is a discussion focused on human motivations and moral convictions, stating that one group of people can't be compared to another group of people because of a legal distinction without any kind of explanation as to why the legal distinction is not irroneous to the discussion is idiotic.
No your argument is false.

Example:
a=apples
b=oranges

40a+700a+5,000a+2a=5,742a (note: even though they are different

-40+700+5,000+2/green apple, small apple, red apple etc.-

they are still all a/apples)

same with oranges

a and b are totally seperate and can never be switching

apples cannot be oranges...ever...unless they make a weird hybrid or something...opples....aranges...

ANYWAYS...
apples cannot be oranges and oranges cannot be apples

Or you can say it like this:

compare/contrast two apples. One is green, one is red. One has bruises, one doesn't. But they're both apples.

compare/contrast two oranges. One is ripe, one is not ripe. One is large, one is small. But they're both apples.

Let's compare an apple and an orange. One's orange, one's red. They're different.

They are too different to compare.

Same with illegals and citizens of this country.

But that is beside the topic.

Please try to stay on topic.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 01:14 PM
 
1,574 posts, read 789,250 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes. And, your experience is extremely limited. I know lots of people, but none are murderers. Does that mean murderers don’t exist?



Of course not. But, neither should we assume they are all here innocently working to feed their families. In addition, some of the so-called “hardworking” illegals, such as day laborers and crop pickers have been convicted of violent crimes. Unfortunately, due to our pandering government, we have no idea what percentage of illegals may pose a threat to this country. Sadly, we must wait for them to actually rape, maim, or kill, and simply hope they don’t flee the country.

But I'm not suggesting that there are ZERO illegal immigrants that engage in actual violent crime. I'm not assuming NONE are murderers.




Quote:
Oh please. If anything, the “new” American way is to coddle illegal foreigners, and allow them to violate our laws with impunity. Why should we be forced to wait for them to prove they’re also violent? Moreover, why should we jeopardize innocent lives for the sake of cheap labor, political correctness, and potential votes for worthless politicians? There is absolutely no excuse for the shameful failure of the U.S. government to protect this country from foreign invaders, violent or otherwise.
Well if you supported massive immigration reform such that these people could immigrate legally, it would be much easier to keep track of the few that are criminals. You would be protecting innocent lives. So why would you oppose that?
 
Old 09-13-2011, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
For one thing it's horribly flawed logic. Lack of respect for some specific law(s) does not imply lack of respect for all laws. I routinely speed does it therefore follow that I won't hesitate to commit murder???

If you still want actual experience, you need to look no further than your own life. Simply ask yourself, "Have I ever broken any laws?" and, if the answer is "Yes" then ask yourself "Would I commit murder just as readily as I broke that other law?" If the answer to the first question was "No" you're probably being dishonest with yourself for one of many possible reasons (my guess would be that your subconscious doesn't want to let go of the illusion that you've constructed that all illegal immigrants are monsters and the root of all the bad things that have happened to you), if you really haven't ever broken a law, do not distress because I'm sure you have friends that have broken various laws and can ask them and expect an honest answer in return.
your question is flawed and does not address the issue.
Ask instead. Would I commit crimes that would in turn force me to commit even more and live my life as a lie?
I wouldnt, nor do I have any friends who would. The speeding analogy. well taken to the extreme i suppose. But speeding does not require you to go on and break a number of more laws simply to exist. Would speeding induce you to murder? No nor does basic illegal immigration. The problem is with the good kind folks your side would have us believe come here illegally also comes the bad. A lot of the bad. So what we have here is a problem. Who is good and who is bad? Can you tell by looking at them? No nor can anyone I know. Do we give a free pass until the bad can't help themselves and hurt someone else? NO because all those socalled honest hard working illegals have already demonstrated the willingness to ignore laws. There is a reason we have a process and thats to try and weed out those who are not qualified or unworthy of the gift of living in this country. Illegals pretty much some up the unworthy as well as the unqualified.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
But I'm not suggesting that there are ZERO illegal immigrants that engage in actual violent crime. I'm not assuming NONE are murderers.
Nor have I EVER stated that ALL illegal aliens are violent criminals or murderers. So, what’s your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
Well if you supported massive immigration reform such that these people could immigrate legally, it would be much easier to keep track of the few that are criminals. You would be protecting innocent lives. So why would you oppose that?
Massive immigration reform? Is that your euphemism for amnesty for the untold millions who chose to thumb their noses at our laws? If so, I will NEVER support rewarding their lawlessness by legalizing their status. Or, are you suggesting we should increase our immigration quotas? Aren’t we currently welcoming more LEGAL immigrants than all other countries combined? Clearly, our immigration laws are exceedingly generous.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymetime View Post
But I'm not suggesting that there are ZERO illegal immigrants that engage in actual violent crime. I'm not assuming NONE are murderers.






Well if you supported massive immigration reform such that these people could immigrate legally, it would be much easier to keep track of the few that are criminals. You would be protecting innocent lives. So why would you oppose that?
But you never explain why its in this nations best interest to allow such a massive wave of immigration which would surely follow if we did lower the standards. Sure they would stop the ID theft, stopmany of their crimes. The fact remains that they would still be minmum wage earners who would without doubt overwhelm an already strained economy and social system.
How many new schools would need to be built? Low income housing? hospitals? All to facilitate these people who really bring nothing to the table that we need.
 
Old 09-13-2011, 01:55 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,383,737 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
We have discussed the difference at length.
The laws you elude to dont require the person to commit other crimes nor do they result in other crimes. Yes it wrong for legal citizens to speed or jaywalk etc. Just as its wrong for my brother to borrow my hammer without asking. But its theft when a stranger does it.
Illegals are uninvited and unwanted criminals who only respect the laws that don't cover the very crimes they are committing.
Look most illegals want to work, to provide for their families and to have happiness. I agree with you on this. Most are not cooking meth, smuggling coke, or raping grandma.
Most have no desire to hurt another soul. I freely admit this because its true. very few use a false ID with the intention of harming anyone.
The fact remains that it does happen and far to often.
An illegal driving without license or insurance runs a red light and grandma is run over. Yes it happens when citizens drive. But it could have and would have been prevented if we enforced our laws and secured the border. Everyday it seems we read about an illegal released from jail for being arrested for a DUI who then skipped court and later kills someone while driving drunk. Or they were deported and returned yet again. This is not a once a year occurance.
We dont know how many die each day killed by illegals. We know that our prisons are filled with illegals arrested for violent crimes. This is fact.
We know this because Obama has made it a cornor stone of his immigration policy to focus on violent offenders.
To say or elude that its not that big of a problem is being less than accurate.

Great post!

It's amazing that anyone could argue about the fact that illegals commit crimes.

Many try to point out that Obama has deported more illegals than past presidents, yet he is only deporting the worst of the violent offenders. Add to that the number that are overcrowding our prison system.
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