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Old 09-21-2011, 12:50 PM
 
3,203 posts, read 2,312,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
I agree, hence I support liberalized legal immigration policies! But I assume that by "the same rules" you mean "those people aren't allowed to play at all, and these people are." Which, you know, is not exactly "the same rules," but at least you have it right in theory.

Yes, you are right...I do mean that those here illegally are not playing by the same rules.

Obviously, considering you believe that all US taxpayers should be paying to raise the standards of everyone on earth, we disagree. Partly because that also puts the US at a disadvantage with the rest of the world...that is not in the market to take the responsibilities of other nations on as their own.

Along with Tinman, I can admire your compassion to a point. My question is, do you want to allow those from all countries or select countries? With new data being released showing the percentage of those living in poverty in the US taking a drastic upward turn, is there a point at which you would change your stance and see a need to stop the influx of the poor and uneducated?

What changes would you make to our current immigration requirements? Should there be any limitations?
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:35 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 10,847,276 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Well hold on.
We can disagree with thier opinions and even fault their logic but I myself don't entirely fault the reasons they feel the way they do.
In a perfect world we dont need borders, or immigration laws or restrictions. I know I know we dont live in a perfect world....
But how does one move towards making it a better place???
I believe in my heart of hearts that thoose who advocate for a more relaxed immigration standard do so because they invision a world where all humans are the same and equal and have equal freedoms. Naive perhaps but one can admire the compassion and spirit of such an ideal.
I disagree with the pro-side as often and as strongly as anyone. But I can still respect the person.
Perhaps some are living in some kind of utopian world and wish it were reality but I believe there are more pro-illegal advocates that have a more sinister agenda rather than the above of which those agendas has been pointed out in here numerous times.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:43 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 10,847,276 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Yes, you are right...I do mean that those here illegally are not playing by the same rules.

Obviously, considering you believe that all US taxpayers should be paying to raise the standards of everyone on earth, we disagree. Partly because that also puts the US at a disadvantage with the rest of the world...that is not in the market to take the responsibilities of other nations on as their own.

Along with Tinman, I can admire your compassion to a point. My question is, do you want to allow those from all countries or select countries? With new data being released showing the percentage of those living in poverty in the US taking a drastic upward turn, is there a point at which you would change your stance and see a need to stop the influx of the poor and uneducated?

What changes would you make to our current immigration requirements? Should there be any limitations?
I question someone's so-called compassion when they seem to have no compassion for the American people who are suffering the brunt of illegal immigration. Why is their compassion only for illegal foreingers? Hmm.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,309 posts, read 18,347,230 times
Reputation: 6507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Yes, you are right...I do mean that those here illegally are not playing by the same rules.

Obviously, considering you believe that all US taxpayers should be paying to raise the standards of everyone on earth, we disagree. Partly because that also puts the US at a disadvantage with the rest of the world...that is not in the market to take the responsibilities of other nations on as their own.

Along with Tinman, I can admire your compassion to a point. My question is, do you want to allow those from all countries or select countries? With new data being released showing the percentage of those living in poverty in the US taking a drastic upward turn, is there a point at which you would change your stance and see a need to stop the influx of the poor and uneducated?

What changes would you make to our current immigration requirements? Should there be any limitations?
This is an example of an excellent post. Fair non-adversarial, not at all slanderous or demeaning and it begs to be answered.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:58 PM
 
403 posts, read 273,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Perhaps some are living in some kind of utopian world and wish it were reality but I believe there are more pro-illegal advocates that have a more sinister agenda rather than the above of which those agendas has been pointed out in here numerous times.
Please reserve posts such as this for the ethnic conspiracies thread.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:28 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 977,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Yes, you are right...I do mean that those here illegally are not playing by the same rules.
Not just those here illegally. Those who are not citizens but instead are born in another country are of course at a disadvantage in US labor markets. To allow them completely unfettered access to those markets would make things EVEN, not give them an advantage. I'm not saying their access should be completely unfettered, but it's worth noting that this would even competition out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
Obviously, considering you believe that all US taxpayers should be paying to raise the standards of everyone on earth
I do not. I have proposed many, many times here a system where immigrants of any skill level, barring criminal propensity and communicable disease, could rapidly become either citizens or work-eligible if they opted out of welfare programs targeted at the poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
My question is, do you want to allow those from all countries or select countries?
All countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
With new data being released showing the percentage of those living in poverty in the US taking a drastic upward turn, is there a point at which you would change your stance and see a need to stop the influx of the poor and uneducated?
No. I don't care about the poverty of Americans any more than I care about the poverty of non-Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
What changes would you make to our current immigration requirements? Should there be any limitations?
The limitations I listed above would be a vast, vast improvement. Now, I don't actually think that poor immigrants will make our welfare system explode even if they're allowed access to TANF or whatever in larger numbers (I'd like to see a war or two ended and the savings sent to help the poor, if I had the choice). But I don't mind limitations on contagious disease and limitations that restrict the free movement of certain criminals.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:07 PM
 
3,203 posts, read 2,312,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Not just those here illegally. Those who are not citizens but instead are born in another country are of course at a disadvantage in US labor markets. To allow them completely unfettered access to those markets would make things EVEN, not give them an advantage. I'm not saying their access should be completely unfettered, but it's worth noting that this would even competition out.



I do not. I have proposed many, many times here a system where immigrants of any skill level, barring criminal propensity and communicable disease, could rapidly become either citizens or work-eligible if they opted out of welfare programs targeted at the poor.



All countries.



No. I don't care about the poverty of Americans any more than I care about the poverty of non-Americans.



The limitations I listed above would be a vast, vast improvement. Now, I don't actually think that poor immigrants will make our welfare system explode even if they're allowed access to TANF or whatever in larger numbers (I'd like to see a war or two ended and the savings sent to help the poor, if I had the choice). But I don't mind limitations on contagious disease and limitations that restrict the free movement of certain criminals.

OK, I don't intend to ignore all that you put in to this post but I have to ask first, if it isn't poverty in the US or other countries that lies at the heart of your wish to change the immigration laws....what is the motive?
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:12 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 977,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
OK, I don't intend to ignore all that you put in to this post but I have to ask first, if it isn't poverty in the US or other countries that lies at the heart of your wish to change the immigration laws....what is the motive?
I didn't say that wasn't a motive, did I? Further, I believe that government interference into personal liberty - including where one can go and whom they can employ or be employed by - should be given the burden of demonstrating a strong benefit. I also believe that the free movement of goods and labor is economically beneficial all around and would aid in alleviating poverty in most markets.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,034 posts, read 6,617,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts? View Post
OK, I don't intend to ignore all that you put in to this post but I have to ask first, if it isn't poverty in the US or other countries that lies at the heart of your wish to change the immigration laws....what is the motive?

Quote:
what is the motive?

He comes form an immigrant family. End of story.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:40 PM
 
3,203 posts, read 2,312,925 times
Reputation: 1542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Not just those here illegally. Those who are not citizens but instead are born in another country are of course at a disadvantage in US labor markets. To allow them completely unfettered access to those markets would make things EVEN, not give them an advantage. I'm not saying their access should be completely unfettered, but it's worth noting that this would even competition out.

I'm not understanding this, my apologies. How can they work here if they aren't physically here?


I do not. I have proposed many, many times here a system where immigrants of any skill level, barring criminal propensity and communicable disease, could rapidly become either citizens or work-eligible if they opted out of welfare programs targeted at the poor.

Are you suggesting that they aren't eligible for any access to help including food, shelter and health care? The problem in the US is that no one will be turned away in health care. I see a difference in emergency health care as opposed to things like dialysis and ongoing care but see where it would be a very slippery slope once people were allowed to be here.

All countries.



No. I don't care about the poverty of Americans any more than I care about the poverty of non-Americans.

See, this is where you say it isn't about poverty. If it isn't about poverty I don't follow your motivation. It leads me to believe that your argument is based on lowering wages in the US. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


The limitations I listed above would be a vast, vast improvement. Now, I don't actually think that poor immigrants will make our welfare system explode even if they're allowed access to TANF or whatever in larger numbers (I'd like to see a war or two ended and the savings sent to help the poor, if I had the choice). But I don't mind limitations on contagious disease and limitations that restrict the free movement of certain criminals.
And here again, you say you don't believe this would affect our social systems if we were to allow entry to millions of people without stipulating any skill levels. I don't like the wars either, I have a daughter that is career military. But I would like to see the bulk of that money used to revitalize our own infrastructure after we get our debt under control.

In the current circumstances, the only ones I see benefiting are the businesses that get cheap labor and the illegals that make slightly more in wages but are allowed to use our social services to supplement their low wages. Also, the politicians are working for votes and the contributions from the businesses that they supply the labor to. The businesses get tax breaks for supplying the jobs and the rest of us feather their nest.

I know I'm not telling you anything because you are seem to know what's going on. That's why I don't understand your motivation since the poverty isn't the issue.

I'm sorry for the way I quote posts but I don't know how to do it the right way. Is anyone willing to tell me how to do it right? LOL When I hit quote I have to write within what comes up on my screen.
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