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I do? I uh...I think you're putting my point into your own, much less thoughtful words and then pretending that's what I said. The distinction is not between physical violence and nonviolence. Some crimes have no victims. Those should not be crimes.
I guess we can all come up with crimes we'd like to commit and have them not be crimes.
Mine would be not paying taxes since taxes are just about confiscating one's income and we shouldn't have them.
Others might figure Medicare fraud isn't a big deal kind of crime.
Illegals actually are destroying our nation, we simply cannot keep bringing in tens of millions of impoverished people who break whatever law doesn't suit them. We don't have jobs for our own people, much less for the entire world. Illegals cannot afford the high costs of living here, certainly not their medical and hospitals bills and it's criminal to expect the taxpayers to subsidize them.
There are various posters on this forum who generally find that the best argument for the strict enforcement of illegal immigration laws is that illegal immigration is...illegal. Which is the same as saying that things should be kept illegal once they're illegal. You can see the pure outrage boiling up, as if "it's illegal" or "they are committing a crime" is actually an argument for the current legal regime, when posters decide that the best way to get their point across is to put the words "criminal" and "illegal" in bold, or perhaps underlined or in italics, or all three for the status quo defender trifecta.
It struck me that I have almost never heard this line of argument employed in the defense of other laws. No one argues that smoking pot should be illegal because the people who smoke pot are criminals. That doesn't make any sense. And mid-debate you rarely see people say "well keep in mind these people are CRIMINALS" or anything along those lines.
And yet it happens here all the time. But most people are criminals or otherwise violate laws. Most people even do those things knowing fully well that they are illegal. I have openly admitted to smoking weed in the past, violating various traffic laws and so forth. People host poker games in their homes, do soft drugs in their basements, download music illegally, speed and jaywalk - all sorts of unlawful things. People also rape and murder. The amount those latter two have in common with the rest is similar to the amount that you have in common with Charles Manson - you're both people, after all.
There is plenty of healthy debate about what the optimal level of regulation for immigration is. We may disagree on that, and I'm not addressing those arguments in this post. My point is only regarding the arguments based on the already existing illegality of certain activities. Those arguments, to be sure, are nothing short of silly. Wait. SILLY
Hmmmm... but do you ever walk up to a cop and say, "I do illegal drugs in my basement and I'm proud of it. I have the RIGHT to do illegal drugs in my basement. What are you going to do about it?" Or do you drive 100 miles per hour past a cop and then keep on driving once he comes after you? And I DO call someone who smokes pot a "criminal". Laws were not made for each of us to decide to obey or disobey at will. Thumbing your nose at laws and authority can only lead to chaos and will leave this country no better off than Iraq or Somalia.
Personally--- I welcome immigrants. I just DO NOT welcome those who come here through ILLEGAL channels. Why? Because it is ILLEGAL. It is unfair to those who came here through legitimate channels and I certainly wouldn't relish living next door to an immigrant whose first order of business in this country was to break one of our LAWS--- whether he or she thought it was a good, fair, prudent, "important," or reasonable law, or not.
Hmmmm... but do you ever walk up to a cop and say, "I do illegal drugs in my basement and I'm proud of it. I have the RIGHT to do illegal drugs in my basement. What are you going to do about it?"
No - you don't have a legal right to do illegal drugs in your basement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1mom
And I DO call someone who smokes pot a "criminal".
Which, again, is accurate. It's just not, in my mind, necessarily a terrible thing to be. A pot-smoker and a murderer are both criminals, but one of them might well be a perfectly fine human being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1mom
Thumbing your nose at laws and authority can only lead to chaos and will leave this country no better off than Iraq or Somalia.
It can ONLY lead to Iraq (which has and has had plenty of government, by the way) or Somalia? What about the civil disobedience of the 1960s?
Yeah, a meaningless fact. That's kinda the point of the post.
The actual point of your post is to try to make yourself appear all knowing and to declare your lack of respect for the rule of law.
You continue to display your naive idealism and are constantly shown to be wrong. You just deny anything that disagrees with your stance, or ignore it. Typical action of one who knows he has no facts, only opinions.
I do? I uh...I think you're putting my point into your own, much less thoughtful words and then pretending that's what I said. The distinction is not between physical violence and nonviolence. Some crimes have no victims. Those should not be crimes.
Name them and show that they have absolutely no victims. Facts would be nice instead of just your blatherling.
Name them and show that they have absolutely no victims. Facts would be nice instead of just your blatherling.
Facts? What kind of facts are you looking for? You could try to avoid being rude if you want me to actually discuss with you. But I assume you just want to argue.
So like, tell me how myself smoking weed in my apartment would produce a victim? Keep in mind that many drugs ARE legal, so you should be able to explain why, say, I can get oxycontin prescribed but not marijuana.
And maybe you should be able to describe why it's illegal to do heroin and legal to gamble away all of your family's money at a casino. I mean, even driving your car has "victims" in the absolutely broadest sense of the word, so I was using it somewhat narrowly. But I do like my legal regimes to make some amount of sense.
And then finally you might want to be able to describe why it's frequently illegal to come here and work if you're healthy and able without jumping through 100 hoops, and yet it's perfectly legal to, say, be an American banker who uses his customers to absorb the risk on the bank's investments.
I am sure you will make a great lawyer. However; that will not help the general public’s perception of lawyers. Nor will we vote for you as king for the day - so you can make your own laws.
We like to think that we are a nation of laws. That is one of the reasons that you can even attend college.
The reasons that we have overlooked our immigration laws has lead to the mess that we are in now. Legal immigrants are struggling with unemployment. Our legal minorities are struggling wit unemployment. Why would it be fair, in your mind, to ignore those that play by the rules?
As to your statements on soft drugs - they also have victims. You went on about how people “host poker games in their homes, do soft drugs in their basements, download music illegally, speed and jaywalk”. We are all aware of the problems with distracted drivers on our roads. Pot can be a distraction. It is even hard to find people that agree on how much THC is a distraction on our roads. Try to find people that agree on how long pot smokers should stay off our roads. With disagreement, even on the basics, how can we safely legalize your “soft” drugs?
I also get tired of all the concerns for the children of our illegal immigrants. Their parents are not held accountable for the mess they put their children in. Not only that; but the parents set the example that breaking our law was no big thing. With that mindset I would not be quick to embrace their children with open arms.
OK, I think I'm finally understanding the parallel that the pro illegal side is using with slavery.
The facts that are being overlooked in that argument are that regardless of how abhorrent slavery was, it was legal at the time. And slave owners treated the slaves as property and robbed them of their heritage. It was a disservice to the African Americans of the time and was a wrong that we righted.
In the case of illegals, the parents that brought them here, did so illegally. They haven't denied them their ties to Mexican culture or knowledge of their extended families. They have also tried to keep their families together. But I would agree that they have used their children for financial gain.
That argument might hold more water if there weren't farm workers that came for years, did their seasonal work legally and took their money home. That is the legal way of helping your family and living within the law and maintaining your integrity.
If illegal children wanted to make the claim that they were treated unfairly by their parents that brought them here, they would also need to want them held accountable for their illegal actions. The claim that US citizens are somehow responsible and need to make reparations by granting them as well as their parents amnesty is preposterous at best and demeaning to those that were brought here years ago against their will. There is no valid comparison in my mind.
Rockmadinejad,
I am sure you will make a great lawyer.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
As to your statements on soft drugs - they also have victims. You went on about how people “host poker games in their homes, do soft drugs in their basements, download music illegally, speed and jaywalk”. We are all aware of the problems with distracted drivers on our roads. Pot can be a distraction. It is even hard to find people that agree on how much THC is a distraction on our roads. Try to find people that agree on how long pot smokers should stay off our roads. With disagreement, even on the basics, how can we safely legalize your “soft” drugs?
We can take this to private messages or another forum if you'd like. But I didn't defend driving while high - I was referring to doing it in the privacy of one's home. But um, it seems pretty obvious that alcohol is worse in every sense, and it's legal. And that should make it clear that the activity that makes one a "criminal" is often less offensive that a perfectly legal activity. Thus the label of "criminal" borders on useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
I also get tired of all the concerns for the children of our illegal immigrants. Their parents are not held accountable for the mess they put their children in. Not only that; but the parents set the example that breaking our law was no big thing. With that mindset I would not be quick to embrace their children with open arms.
You want to punish the children for the crimes of their parents, basically.
OK, I think I'm finally understanding the parallel that the pro illegal side is using with slavery.
The facts that are being overlooked in that argument are that regardless of how abhorrent slavery was, it was legal at the time. And slave owners treated the slaves as property and robbed them of their heritage. It was a disservice to the African Americans of the time and was a wrong that we righted.
That fact isn't being overlooked, it's the whole point of the argument. The legality of something says almost NOTHING as to its morality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?
That argument might hold more water if there weren't farm workers that came for years, did their seasonal work legally and took their money home. That is the legal way of helping your family and living within the law and maintaining your integrity.
The fact that SOME people take a certain route doesn't mean that the legal regime behind it is sensible or humane or at all good law. My father immigrated here legally, but I still believe that the system is broken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?
If illegal children wanted to make the claim that they were treated unfairly by their parents that brought them here, they would also need to want them held accountable for their illegal actions. The claim that US citizens are somehow responsible and need to make reparations by granting them as well as their parents amnesty is preposterous at best and demeaning to those that were brought here years ago against their will. There is no valid comparison in my mind.
I don't believe that people are "responsible" for other people in the manner that you imply. The difference between how you think and how I think is that you believe that allowing someone to cross a border and work on the other side of it is some sort of favor. But favors require some sort of sacrifice on the part of the person giving it. It costs you nothing to let that happen. In my mind, the burden lies on the person who wants to interfere with the free exchange of goods and services. The person looking to make that exchange need not justify it in advance.
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