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Old 12-31-2011, 12:10 AM
 
3,874 posts, read 3,199,909 times
Reputation: 2503

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
So basically you're saying that even legal, employed, taxpaying immigrants should not be here, since, if we are discussing low-skill, the government doesn't make enough off of them to justify their existence. Interesting. While we're at it, let's just bring back eugenics and get rid of anyone not fully meeting their usefulness quota.

Humans are, supposedly, intelligent creatures. We have the ability given that intelligence, along with having a greater emotional capacity than all other species, to truly make this world a place we can be proud of. Instead, people like yourself step onto a cardboard soapbox and do nothing but choose anger and hatred and tear at the very foundations of civilization. I know you won't, but if I were you, I might feel at least a tiny bit of shame and humility. I guess that's why I like the idea of reincarnation. Not that I believe in it, but I can't think of anything better than someone like you, in the next life, being born some poor peasant in some 3rd World country, always striving for a better life but never attaining it. That's a cosmic justice I can get behind.
You failed again. This isn't the reincarnation thread.

BTW LEGAL immigrants are welcome, next time learn to tell the difference between the 2.

You failed yet again with your emotional retort to a post in the ILEGAL immigration forum. This isn't about "cosmic justice".

This is a national security, economic and legal issue. If you seek spiritual answers the Dalai Lama, Pope Benedict, Gandhi or Oprah might be a better source.

Laws and legality are the issues here, not what happened to Montezuma, Pancho Villa or others in the past.

Yes humans are intelligent, that's why we have law and order for stability and structure, otherwise we would descend into chaos.

It's also why we see Illegal immigration for economic reasons as wrong and have immigration laws for the benefit of Americans NOT foreigners.

Nothing stops a person from obtaining a better life in their homelands. Yes it's might be difficult.

Time for Mexicans to grow a spine and deal with their own issues instead of taking the easy way out.

Arabs are doing that right now.
Black Americans didn't cut and run, they dealt from within.
Colonists fought the British.


Don't give me a pathetic sob story, Somali's are suffering and need sympathy, Mexico is 100 times better. Japan rebuilt after being nuked and countless of other countries have been dealt with war and famine.

Mexico has it 100 x"s easier.

 
Old 12-31-2011, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,841 posts, read 12,911,736 times
Reputation: 5532
Quote:
Originally Posted by antarez View Post
You failed again. This isn't the reincarnation thread.

BTW LEGAL immigrants are welcome, next time learn to tell the difference between the 2.

You failed yet again with your emotional retort to a post in the ILEGAL immigration forum. This isn't about "cosmic justice".

This is a national security, economic and legal issue. If you seek spiritual answers the Dalai Lama, Pope Benedict, Gandhi or Oprah might be a better source.

Laws and legality are the issues here, not what happened to Montezuma, Pancho Villa or others in the past.

Yes humans are intelligent, that's why we have law and order for stability and structure, otherwise we would descend into chaos.

It's also why we see Illegal immigration for economic reasons as wrong and have immigration laws for the benefit of Americans NOT foreigners.

Nothing stops a person from obtaining a better life in their homelands. Yes it's might be difficult.

Time for Mexicans to grow a spine and deal with their own issues instead of taking the easy way out.

Arabs are doing that right now.
Black Americans didn't cut and run, they dealt from within.
Colonists fought the British.


Don't give me a pathetic sob story, Somali's are suffering and need sympathy, Mexico is 100 times better. Japan rebuilt after being nuked and countless of other countries have been dealt with war and famine.

Mexico has it 100 x"s easier.
I sooo wish you got irony. Also, let's not pretend like you give two sh*ts about any of those places or any of those groups. It's just dishonest to use them to prove any point you are trying to make. All I see is you crying because you're worried about you. I don't even think it has anything to do with the US, it's about being worried how this messes with *your* bottom line. Sorry, but for about 5 seconds, I thought you might be reasonable. If I had known otherwise, I wouldn't have wasted time writing out some of the history between the US and Mexico and how it relates to illegal immigration. History, and apparently irony, is consistenly lost on those who see the world without context. My mistake.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 12:27 AM
 
3,874 posts, read 3,199,909 times
Reputation: 2503
You know what, keep the personal attacks out of it, getting overly emotional is not winning your arguement.

Mistakes of the past are no justification for the mistakes of the future. You seem to think you're right. I disagree.

In closing I wish all the best to Mexicans IN THEIR COUNTRY. Mexico has alot of beauty, a large workforce and natural resources. They need to deal wth their own issues.

Spain setup corrupt political systems and destroyed many aspects of it's Indian culture. That's the root of Latin America's problems , not the US.

Time fotr them to deal with it and prosper, not take the easy way out and expect Americans to pickup the tab.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 12:35 AM
 
11,536 posts, read 8,550,655 times
Reputation: 3580
Quote:
Originally Posted by antarez View Post
Time for Mexicans to grow a spine and deal with their own issues instead of taking the easy way out.
Such a negative view of people living in Mexico.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,841 posts, read 12,911,736 times
Reputation: 5532
Quote:
Originally Posted by antarez View Post
You know what, keep the personal attacks out of it, getting overly emotional is not winning your arguement.

Mistakes of the past are no justification for the mistakes of the future. You seem to think you're right. I disagree.

In closing I wish all the best to Mexicans IN THEIR COUNTRY. Mexico has alot of beauty, a large workforce and natural resources. They need to deal wth their own issues.

Spain setup corrupt political systems and destroyed many aspects of it's Indian culture. That's the root of Latin America's problems , not the US.

Time fotr them to deal with it and prosper, not take the easy way out and expect Americans to pickup the tab.
Again with the lack of irony. Did you even read my history post? The US engaged in MANY awful things, without any sense of humanity or compassion or reason. And here you are, basically saying this is exactly how we should treat these people, no matter the circumstances, no matter if there are other options available. You're absolutely right, mistakes of the past are no justification for them now. So why haven't you learned this lesson?

And I've already won, dude, you just don't seem to know it.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 12:51 AM
 
3,874 posts, read 3,199,909 times
Reputation: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Again with the lack of irony. Did you even read my history post? The US engaged in MANY awful things, without any sense of humanity or compassion or reason. And here you are, basically saying this is exactly how we should treat these people, no matter the circumstances, no matter if there are other options available. You're absolutely right, mistakes of the past are no justification for them now. So why haven't you learned this lesson?

And I've already won, dude, you just don't seem to know it.
No you've lost the debate that's why you keep coming back with irrelevant history discussions.

Again you are taking this way too personal. Debate over. Feel free to carry on with it if you like. My points have already been made.

Though you have made your points we just disagree.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:08 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,244,488 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by antarez View Post
Even if we revamped it, it would still be ignored. We already let in more Mexicans legally by far than any other nationality and it's never enough.

We still would require sponsors and self sufficiency, those that wouldn't qualify would STILL ignore the laws.

Any changes short of a completely open border and total amnesty wouldn't be enough for them.

The US is not responsible for another country's poor and uneducated.

What would be fair is if we let in EQUAL amounts of Guatemalans, Poles, Burmese, Italians, Salvadorans, Chinese, Latvians and everyone else.

Guess what ???

Mexicans would still complain and continue to violate immigration laws.

The Reagan Amnesty proved this.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:30 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,474,556 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Eh, see I like history. I'm fascinated by history's multitude of ironic situations. Take our country for example. European immigrants came here to build new lives, to escape oppressive governments, to practice their own belief systems free of interference, etc. Only problem was, when they arrived, there were already people here. Now, I'm not sure if you know much about the Americas before European contact, but all recent evidence suggests that they were nothing like what our high school history books told us.

They weren't lands of untouched, pristine wilderness. The Natives had been terraforming both continents so much for so long that forests were more like city parks and animal populations were constantly in check. For example, take bison. When most Europeans first saw the Great Plains, they witnessed herds of bison as far as the eye could see. It's estimated that there were, at one point, between 40 and 60 million of them. Settlers eventually nearly made them extinct (at one point there were maybe 1,000), but not the point. The point is that those huge numbers Europeans saw was an unintended consequence of First Contact. European disease killed off so many Natives that the animals they had been keeping in check exploded in population. By the time most people saw the Great Plains, they only saw the result of the human die-off. It was the same story with countless other animals as well, and without the Natives managing forests, they grew unchecked until most colonists simply believed they had always been these dense, untouched lands. The colonists claimed the land for themselves thinking that they would be the first to develop it. They had no idea they were building on top of civilizations they, at least at first, inadvertantly destroyed.

The rest of the Natives, with their numbers decimated by First Contact diseases, inevitably were slaughtered by colonial and then US government forces. There were many tribes and cultures that were so completely wiped out that there is nothing left of them. The US intentionally tried to commit cultural genocide (beyond the actual one going on) by opening up schools that forced Natives to learn English, to dress like white Americans, to convert to Christianity, etc. These policies were repeated in all of Central and South America, including Mexico. These policies proved so effective that, even now, the darker brown you are in Mexico, the lower class you are considered to be. It's very similar, but somewhat less well-known than India's caste system. Basically, US and European policy made being Native not only something to be ashamed of, but something in which to actively deny. Most Mexicans are mestizo, a mix of Spanish and Native genetics, but many people will outright deny that they have any Native blood at all, because it often means that you get fewer opportunities.

A large portion of America's illegal problem ultimately stems back to these long-held beliefs. Most of the people coming to the US are poor, with quite a few being farmers. A LOT of Mexican farmers tend to be of Native blood, as farming is something that goes back here for millenia. It used to be a somewhat sustainable practice, but trade agreements like NAFTA took away their ability to make any kind of living farming, and with ongoing stereotypes and racism (perpetuated by our own doing), these poor people find it significantly harder to find other types of work. Throw in the fact that Mexico's economy basically collapsed in the mid-1990s (around the same time as NAFTA), that's when we saw illegal immigration really start to skyrocket. When you have the most powerful nation on the planet just north of the border, well I would imagine that's quite the beacon for people who's options are few and getting fewer.

So where are we at today? Well, Mexico's economy is improving and growing at a rate faster than the US', and this is allowing more of the nation's poor to stay there. It's even drawn some of the US' Mexican illegals back. So what about those that aren't leaving? Besides so much irony in the above facts, it is disingenuous at best to suggest that we simply deport them. We've been screwing these people over for 500 years, is it really that hard to come up with a logical, reasoned immigration plan? I think not. It's so easy for modern Americans to get on the high horse, but history tells a very sordid story about our relationship with these people, and while we don't owe them anything free, we do have control over the system and can come up with something better.
My people are the Irish, another "hated' group of people many years ago. They were treated like crap by the English. But the English actually helped out Ireland a lot like forcing us to join the modern world.

What I'm trying to say is it wasn't just the Indians who were conquered by a more powerful group of people.

Long story short, many Mexican Americans I know don't want illegals here for many reasons. Why Mexico is such a mess is Mexico's problem to solve. It's their choice. Either join the world or be taken down.

Concerning the diseases that killed off the Indians: many people in Europe died as well from them during the Plagues in the 15th Century. Louis Pasteur Pasteur's proof of disease transmission wasn't discovered till around 1850 something.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:33 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,474,556 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by antarez View Post
You failed again. This isn't the reincarnation thread.

BTW LEGAL immigrants are welcome, next time learn to tell the difference between the 2.

You failed yet again with your emotional retort to a post in the ILEGAL immigration forum. This isn't about "cosmic justice".

This is a national security, economic and legal issue. If you seek spiritual answers the Dalai Lama, Pope Benedict, Gandhi or Oprah might be a better source.

Laws and legality are the issues here, not what happened to Montezuma, Pancho Villa or others in the past.

Yes humans are intelligent, that's why we have law and order for stability and structure, otherwise we would descend into chaos.

It's also why we see Illegal immigration for economic reasons as wrong and have immigration laws for the benefit of Americans NOT foreigners.

Nothing stops a person from obtaining a better life in their homelands. Yes it's might be difficult.

Time for Mexicans to grow a spine and deal with their own issues instead of taking the easy way out.

Arabs are doing that right now.
Black Americans didn't cut and run, they dealt from within.
Colonists fought the British.


Don't give me a pathetic sob story, Somali's are suffering and need sympathy, Mexico is 100 times better. Japan rebuilt after being nuked and countless of other countries have been dealt with war and famine.

Mexico has it 100 x"s easier.
Let me add something to your list. Mexico had the balls to kick Spain out 200 years ago. So Mexico can fix itself up; it's their choice to make.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:36 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,474,556 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savoir Faire View Post
Such a negative view of people living in Mexico.
It's the truth. Mexico isn't a poor country. Haiti IS poor. antarez said countries like Japan rebuilt after being nuked in 1945. Mexico hasn't had any sort of real war in 100 years or so.
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