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Old 01-08-2012, 01:32 PM
 
387 posts, read 273,666 times
Reputation: 40

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
And the American poor get destroyed by medical bills they can't pay. They have a decreased ability to find a job because of a bad credit rating that also effects their ability to rent an apartment.

The double standard is disgusting. Mexico should be billed for the care of Mexicans. Do you disagree with this assertion?
Medical costs of their nature goes with residence...not with nationality. And the medical care of the poor is always an issue unless you have some sort of universal coverage. I badly ripped a foot while sailing off Saint Martin...went to the Dutch run medical clinic and had it stitched up. No charge. They actually had no mechanism to collect money.


Quote:
I'm amused that you make excuses for their behavior while steadfastly condemning Americans who dare object to this behavior.
Mything again are we? I made no excuse. I merely pointed out the facts. You really have trouble with facts that contradict your beliefs don't you,

Quote:
Yes they do. Mexico's government and people do everything they can to encourage their high school dropouts to come here. If they do everything they can to encourage them to come we can surely do what we can to encourage them to go home where they belong.
Myth again. Show your source for this please.


Quote:
Giving amnesty to those already here will not accomplish that task. All that it will is bring more people here. We owe those people nothing let alone some sort of "arrangement."
And doing nothing will bring even more.


Quote:
The California DREAM act includes free tuition for Mexican nationals. That's a fact. "A path to citizenship" is nothing more than amnesty that will attract yet more illegals.
Here is the California Dream Act - Kindly point out where the free tuition is...

*********************
AB 130, Cedillo. Student financial aid: eligibility: California
Dream Act of 2011.
Existing law requires that a person, other than a nonimmigrant
alien, as defined, who has attended high school in California for 3
or more years, who has graduated from a California high school or
attained the equivalent thereof, who has registered at or attends an
accredited institution of higher education in California not earlier
than the fall semester or quarter of the 2001-02 academic year, and
who, if he or she is an alien without lawful immigration status, has
filed a prescribed affidavit, is exempt from paying nonresident
tuition at the California Community Colleges and the California State
University.
This bill would enact the California Dream Act of 2011.
This bill would provide that, on and after January 1, 2012, a
student attending the California State University, the California
Community Colleges, or the University of California who is exempt
from paying nonresident tuition under the provision described above
would be eligible to receive a scholarship derived from nonstate
funds received, for the purpose of scholarships, by the segment at
which he or she is a student.
The Donahoe Higher Education Act sets forth, among other things,
the missions and functions of California's public and independent
segments of higher education, and their respective institutions of
higher education. Provisions of the act apply to the University of
California only to the extent that the Regents of the University of
California, by appropriate resolution, act to make a provision
applicable.
This bill would find and declare that the amendments to the
Donahoe Higher Education Act described above are state laws within
the meaning of a specified federal provision.
**********************************



Quote:
Where is your rational discussion? You constantly contradict yourself. You say you want no more low skilled Mexican migrants yet you support measures like the DREAM act and "accommodations" for illegals already here that will bring in even more such people.



I'm not the one advocating open amnesty while simultaneously proclaming my desire to see fewer illegals. Talk about strange . . .
Your beliefs are so strong that you appear unable to hear any other position.

My views has been and remains the illegal alien invasion should not have been allowed to happen.

But it was and is now a fait accompli. I see no rational way to end it as we lack both the will and the means to deport or force self deportation of the illegals here.

It may well be that we will again screw it up. But the status quo is a certain failure and that is the other outcome.

So I prefer to find some means of fixing it rather than ending up with another 5 million. Liquidreign points out that the economy is changing in foreign places and the US may lose its charm. That would also tend to minimize further influx. But my goal would be to get into a situation where no illegal can maintain a presence in the US for more than a year. That will take not only dealing with the present illegal population but will likely require doubling the forces of the immigraton organizations.

We can of course continue to bury our heads in the sand. The likely demographic in Mexico will run out in ten or so years. That is a solution I suppose. And maybe the one we will adopt.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,916 posts, read 12,949,509 times
Reputation: 5563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Oh for god sakes please give the smugness a rest. If it makes you feel any better I find your grasp on reality false and tenuous at best. How can you possibly assert that no American goes without health care when just about anyone living here knows this to be false? Are you a Republican pol? A Mexican national ignorant about this country? A spoiled college kid with no real world experience?

I didn't assert that there are no Americans that go without health care, I'm saying it depends on what kind of health care we're talking about. ER care, which is what illegals would typically be forced to use because of a lack of insurance and documentation, is different than long-term chronic health problems. Americans without insurance can and do go without care for chronic issues, but ER care is available to everyone, insurance or not.

You did not answer the OP or my subsequent question.

What question was it that you think I didn't answer? Since you didn't quote anything, it's hard to know what you're referring to.

As for what I know about Mexico I know Mexico is 34th worldwide in national income:

Median household income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And? It has a lower average income than Turkey, and we're talking $4,689 a YEAR. That breaks down to less than $391 a month or less than $13 a day. Compare that to the US' $31,111, which breaks down to a little less than $2,593 a month. So in one month, people, on average, make more than half of the average ANNUAL income in Mexico. Even factoring in Mexico's general lower cost of living, do you honestly believe that most people, especially those with families, are doing well? And you have to remember that this is an average. Quite a few people make much less than this, and those people likely represent those most likely willing to become an illegal immigrant.

That makes them richer per capita than most of the world.

Again, that's meaningless without context. Most nations in the world are poor. Saying they're better off than Somalia is not saying much at all.

Do they have ANY responsibility to much of the world that is poorer than they are? Or does that particular responsibility only apply to Americans?

It's rather an apples to oranges comparison here. And I don't think the US has a mandatory responsibility and never said that. I do think, though, that, as the richest nation on earth, we have a moral responsibility to give more than nations that aren't so fortunate, and for the most part, I think we do give a lot worldwide. We are, however, far from perfect and tend to lack empathy when it comes to the plight of others living in circumstances we have no personal experience with. There is a huge disconnect, and probably why we only tend to give in large numbers during disasters or Christmas.

You argue that Mexicans have some special right to break American immigration laws and get health care that Americans pay for. You further argue that Americans should be forced to let them come here even if this does not benefit us.

Actually, those aren't my arguments at all and that is a total mischaracterization. My arguments are based in the gray of reality, not in the black and white of stereotypes and absolutes. I can understand the confusion you're having, though, considering you don't see gray, much like many other people here.

You argue this despite the fact that most Mexicans, contrary to your assertions are not all poor, all that lacking in per capita income by world standards or even particularly calorically deprived. You argue this even though the people in question are largely high school dropouts who are not needed in our economy and punish our own poor.

So let's apply what you just said to the US. Most Americans are not poor. So does that mean that those that are deserve absolutely no consideration? Of course not, because that's a ridiculous position and it oversimplifies how many people live. And again, where are you getting your high school dropout numbers from and how does it apply to illegals? Also, you realize that, especially for the poor, completing education is extremely difficult considering the pressure early on to go out and get a job?

WHY?

Please answer this question. Without resorting to cheap emotionalism and repetitions of the simplistic mantra that the people in question are human beings and anyone who does not agree with their actions some sort of horrible and evil person . . .
Well, I do honestly think many of the positions here lack empathy, common sense, and are ripe with a sense of personal entitlement, but my arguments are not based on that. It does, however, need to be said on occasion. You have a very strange view of Mexico. I asked a direct question as to what your personal experience with Mexico was and what you knew about it. You bring up some Wiki links and believe it supports you, but they clearly don't.

Last edited by jbcmh81; 01-08-2012 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,916 posts, read 12,949,509 times
Reputation: 5563
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Don't have it -- but every single illegal who crosses the border or overstays a visa and does not buy himself/herself a health insurance policy certainly does expect to receive free health care in the event he or she should need health care. That's most illegals.

And the other thing, many illegals will gladly accept very low wages and no employer provided health care insurance -- just to get here and have the free care available.
I don't think it's an expectation of free health care, but rather an expectation of not getting sick. Most people, here in the US as well, do not plan for illness. We may have insurance through our jobs, but it's not something most people think about until it actually becomes a problem. Where you perceive negative intent, I simply see the human condition of denying their inevitable deterioration of health or the possibility of accidents. What you apply to illegals is something almost everyone does. This is where personal bias has superceded the reasonal expectation of human behavior.

Do you really believe illegals love low wages and the inability to have employment benefits? No, it's not about gladly accepting those conditions, it's that they tend not to have any choice in the matter. They take what they can get, in the same way that a former businessman might take a position at McDonald's simply to have some money coming in.

Last edited by jbcmh81; 01-08-2012 at 02:56 PM..
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,916 posts, read 12,949,509 times
Reputation: 5563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Many on here would feed them, cloth them, house them, and help them get on their feet, but they would be told they should go home and work on their problems there. You make many assumptions of the people on here. Many have grown up in tough circumstances, not much different then those that come here illegally. Your perception of yourself isn't something you need to project on to others, quite frankly we could careless how you feel towards ourselves. As for having lived south of the border, some of us on here have lived in Latin America, so don't think you are the only one. From your other comments that you may be going back there soon for a job, glad to here it, while you're there let them know that if they come here without authorization they will be exploited, treated like slaves, and deported, so save their money by not paying the coyote to cross, I mean if they can come up with the $1500 down payment they could have lived at home decently for a year for that amount.
First, I think most of the people here would call ICE on a newborn without hesitation if they didn't have the right paperwork. Second, Mexicans are not dumb. They understand the consequences of their actions in the same way that Americans do. At the same time, desperation forces people into tough choices. You being condescending and suggesting they just "go home and work on their problems" is spoken, clearly, by someone who hasn't faced that kind of desperation or lack of choice.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,916 posts, read 12,949,509 times
Reputation: 5563
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntieannie68 View Post
R U SERIOUS????

children having children is rampant here(especially in our poorer areas)---we americans have taken the culture of irresponsibility to new heights and have extended this everywhere far surpassing anything any poor country has done
Incidentally, one of the big costs of medical care is the "I'm going to sue you for everything" culture. People sue here at the drop of a hat, something almost unheard of in Mexico and other nations.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:00 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,412,926 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Medical costs of their nature goes with residence...not with nationality. And the medical care of the poor is always an issue unless you have some sort of universal coverage. I badly ripped a foot while sailing off Saint Martin...went to the Dutch run medical clinic and had it stitched up. No charge. They actually had no mechanism to collect money.
That's nice. Now to go the Mexico and see how fast the Mexicans pay for your medical bills. Our screwed up medical system is not being helped when people like yourself demand we pay the medical bills of Mexican nationals.

Quote:
Mything again are we? I made no excuse. I merely pointed out the facts. You really have trouble with facts that contradict your beliefs don't you,
I love how I'm this terrible bad person but Mexicans who encourage their high school dropouts to come here and take our tax dollars merit merely a shrug from you.

Double standards, much?



Quote:

Myth again. Show your source for this please.
Go read the forum. You'll see dozens of instances of Mexican officials actively encouraging their nationals to come here.

Quote:
And doing nothing will bring even more.
I don't want to do nothing. You're the one who wants to reward them with citizenship and benefits. You really think that's going to stop more of them from coming here?


Quote:
Here is the California Dream Act - Kindly point out where the free tuition is...

*********************
AB 130, Cedillo. Student financial aid: eligibility: California
Dream Act of 2011.
Existing law requires that a person, other than a nonimmigrant
alien, as defined, who has attended high school in California for 3
or more years, who has graduated from a California high school or
attained the equivalent thereof, who has registered at or attends an
accredited institution of higher education in California not earlier
than the fall semester or quarter of the 2001-02 academic year, and
who, if he or she is an alien without lawful immigration status, has
filed a prescribed affidavit, is exempt from paying nonresident
tuition at the California Community Colleges and the California State
University.
This bill would enact the California Dream Act of 2011.
This bill would provide that, on and after January 1, 2012, a
student attending the California State University, the California
Community Colleges, or the University of California who is exempt
from paying nonresident tuition under the provision described above
would be eligible to receive a scholarship derived from nonstate
funds received, for the purpose of scholarships, by the segment at
which he or she is a student.
The Donahoe Higher Education Act sets forth, among other things,
the missions and functions of California's public and independent
segments of higher education, and their respective institutions of
higher education. Provisions of the act apply to the University of
California only to the extent that the Regents of the University of
California, by appropriate resolution, act to make a provision
applicable.
This bill would find and declare that the amendments to the
Donahoe Higher Education Act described above are state laws within
the meaning of a specified federal provision.
**********************************
I'm really and truly stunned here. Do you know anything at all about this issue? ANYTHING? Do you really think you could write this paragraph and no one would point out that you're completely and utterly wrong? A swear to god a five second search found the following article:

Capitol Alert: Jerry Brown signs California Dream Act

Quote:
The California Dream Act allows access to public financial aid, including Cal Grants, for undocumented students who came to the country before turning 16 and attended California high schools. Those students already are eligible for in-state tuition, and Brown in July signed a companion measure affording them access to private financial aid.
Quote:
Your beliefs are so strong that you appear unable to hear any other position.
That's laughable after the false assertions you just made.

Quote:
My views has been and remains the illegal alien invasion should not have been allowed to happen.

But it was and is now a fait accompli. I see no rational way to end it as we lack both the will and the means to deport or force self deportation of the illegals here.
Yet Obama is deporting millions. Funny that. There is no WE, Olecapt (and yes you should exactly like that banned poster -- you really, really do). There is only you making excuses for them and telling us we must fund the education of Mexicans and grant them benefits at taxpayer expense.

Quote:
It may well be that we will again screw it up. But the status quo is a certain failure and that is the other outcome.

So I prefer to find some means of fixing it rather than ending up with another 5 million. Liquidreign points out that the economy is changing in foreign places and the US may lose its charm. That would also tend to minimize further influx. But my goal would be to get into a situation where no illegal can maintain a presence in the US for more than a year. That will take not only dealing with the present illegal population but will likely require doubling the forces of the immigraton organizations.

We can of course continue to bury our heads in the sand. The likely demographic in Mexico will run out in ten or so years. That is a solution I suppose. And maybe the one we will adopt.
You say all of that and yet you support the DREAM act and amnesty. It's really weird.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:14 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,412,926 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Well, I do honestly think many of the positions here lack empathy, common sense, and are ripe with a sense of personal entitlement, but my arguments are not based on that. It does, however, need to be said on occasion. You have a very strange view of Mexico. I asked a direct question as to what your personal experience with Mexico was and what you knew about it. You bring up some Wiki links and believe it supports you, but they clearly don't.
Your definition of empathy and common sense is to advocate for the importation of massive numbers of low skilled migrants from the world's 12th largest economy. That's just stupid. If Mexico is a less than ideal place well that describes most of the world. Are Americans responsible for taking on the world's ills and making other countries into a utopia? Or is it just Mexico?



I am in favor of helping the world be a better place just like you are. But unlike you I don't believe I should punish poor people here with overcrowded schools and lowered wages to do so. This isn't about shades or grey or other such nonsense. This is about actually making you think about the very real and very bad consequences of the policies you so blithely advocate. When you santimoniously insist that someone who violates our immigration and employment laws should be allowed to stay because you think conditions in their home country are less than ideal you might at least admit that such a viewpoint is not without reprecussions.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:30 PM
 
387 posts, read 273,666 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
That's nice. Now to go the Mexico and see how fast the Mexicans pay for your medical bills. Our screwed up medical system is not being helped when people like yourself demand we pay the medical bills of Mexican nationals.
Only those present and living in the US. And I would expect the Mexicans to fix me if I broke down there...as may well happen as I have spent substantial time sailing up and down the coast of Mexico.


Quote:
I love how I'm this terrible bad person but Mexicans who encourage their high school dropouts to come here and take our tax dollars merit merely a shrug from you.

Double standards, much?



Go read the forum. You'll see dozens of instances of Mexican officials actively encouraging their nationals to come here.
More myth...or perhaps self-flagellation. And a little BS. If you know places on this forum where examples can be found I will be glad to look. But I flatly don't believe you.


Quote:

I don't want to do nothing. You're the one who wants to reward them with citizenship and benefits. You really think that's going to stop more of them from coming here?
Myth again. I don't know that I want anything other than enough regularization so they come out and sign up. I would expect a path to citizenship will occur in time. But no need anytime soon.

Quote:
I'm really and truly stunned here. Do you know anything at all about this issue? ANYTHING? Do you really think you could write this paragraph and no one would point out that you're completely and utterly wrong? A swear to god a five second search found the following article:

Capitol Alert: Jerry Brown signs California Dream Act
Mything away again. That is the legislative Counsel's Digest of the law...

AB 130 Assembly Bill - CHAPTERED

*********************
AB 130, Cedillo. Student financial aid: eligibility: California
Dream Act of 2011.
Existing law requires that a person, other than a nonimmigrant
alien, as defined, who has attended high school in California for 3
or more years, who has graduated from a California high school or
attained the equivalent thereof, who has registered at or attends an
accredited institution of higher education in California not earlier
than the fall semester or quarter of the 2001-02 academic year, and
who, if he or she is an alien without lawful immigration status, has
filed a prescribed affidavit, is exempt from paying nonresident
tuition at the California Community Colleges and the California State
University.
This bill would enact the California Dream Act of 2011.
This bill would provide that, on and after January 1, 2012, a
student attending the California State University, the California
Community Colleges, or the University of California who is exempt
from paying nonresident tuition under the provision described above
would be eligible to receive a scholarship derived from nonstate
funds received, for the purpose of scholarships, by the segment at
which he or she is a student.
The Donahoe Higher Education Act sets forth, among other things,
the missions and functions of California's public and independent
segments of higher education, and their respective institutions of
higher education. Provisions of the act apply to the University of
California only to the extent that the Regents of the University of
California, by appropriate resolution, act to make a provision
applicable.
This bill would find and declare that the amendments to the
Donahoe Higher Education Act described above are state laws within
the meaning of a specified federal provision.
**********************************



Quote:
That's laughable after the false assertions you just made.
You mean the digest by the Legislative Counsel? False?


Quote:
Yet Obama is deporting millions. Funny that. There is no WE, Olecapt (and yes you should exactly like that banned poster -- you really, really do). There is only you making excuses for them and telling us we must fund the education of Mexicans and grant them benefits at taxpayer expense.



You say all of that and yet you support the DREAM act and amnesty. It's really weird.
Part myth. I do support the DREAM act as anything else is stupid. I support some version of regularization.

You however continue to support the status quo which causes the worst possible outcome. Note that the status quo will inevitably lead to an Amnesty of one sort or the other down the road. As the Hispanics grow in numbers they will have their way. Good old American single issue politics.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,916 posts, read 12,949,509 times
Reputation: 5563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Your definition of empathy and common sense is to advocate for the importation of massive numbers of low skilled migrants from the world's 12th largest economy. That's just stupid. If Mexico is a less than ideal place well that describes most of the world. Are Americans responsible for taking on the world's ills and making other countries into a utopia? Or is it just Mexico?



I am in favor of helping the world be a better place just like you are. But unlike you I don't believe I should punish poor people here with overcrowded schools and lowered wages to do so. This isn't about shades or grey or other such nonsense. This is about actually making you think about the very real and very bad consequences of the policies you so blithely advocate. When you santimoniously insist that someone who violates our immigration and employment laws should be allowed to stay because you think conditions in their home country are less than ideal you might at least admit that such a viewpoint is not without reprecussions.
It would be nice if you could address what I actually say instead of projecting strawmen. It's convenient, I know, to ignore everything you don't have an answer for, but it would help the conversation along if you would just honestly address any points made.
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:25 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,732,796 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
First, I think most of the people here would call ICE on a newborn without hesitation if they didn't have the right paperwork. Second, Mexicans are not dumb. They understand the consequences of their actions in the same way that Americans do. At the same time, desperation forces people into tough choices. You being condescending and suggesting they just "go home and work on their problems" is spoken, clearly, by someone who hasn't faced that kind of desperation or lack of choice.
But you admit that They understand the consequences of their actions in the same way that Americans do so being deported for their actions shouldn't cause a lack of empathy nor does it show an immoral position. You claim it is desperation on their part, yet dismiss their own greed. Go to any city/town in Latin America, every house will have a TV and the streets will be lined with Chevy or Ford pick-ups. All the men wear exotic skinned boots, new jeans, shirts, and cowboy hats.

I think you are projecting the Natives of S and C American Countries disparities on to those who come here attempting to think they are one in the same, news flash, they aren't.
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