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Old 01-08-2012, 04:49 PM
 
4,829 posts, read 4,808,096 times
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Illegal immigrants are working less than desirable jobs for less than desirable wages. Does it make your "quality of life" better or worse? Simple Question. You get corporate food stuff for less, janitorial services for less, construction for less, road maintenance for less, manufacturing good for less. That's your "gain"

On the other hand, you are complaining about spending more on illegal' medical care & education. All that illegals can "afford" are emergency room butchers (many of whom don't give a dime) shrugging you off unless you are comatose and free clinics. Most of the private doctors will not take you without an insurance. I just find it hard to believe that illegal overrun medical facilities, not in my experience. Medical facilities know how to bounce paupers. Unless it's something critical, illegals don't bother to get medical care (at least in my corner of the woods).

What is the balance?

OK, to make a question even more "interesting", let's assume that all the jobs held by illegals are takes by Americans, and let's be generous all of them are making $10/hr. Which means that most of them will qualify for medicare (illegals don't get) and free lunches for their kids. I doesn't sound you'll save much if anything. Underlying problem - low income jobs, it doesn't matter who does them.
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:05 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Illegal immigrants are working less than desirable jobs for less than desirable wages. Does it make your "quality of life" better or worse? Simple Question. You get corporate food stuff for less, janitorial services for less, construction for less, road maintenance for less, manufacturing good for less. That's your "gain"

On the other hand, you are complaining about spending more on illegal' medical care & education. All that illegals can "afford" are emergency room butchers (many of whom don't give a dime) shrugging you off unless you are comatose and free clinics. Most of the private doctors will not take you without an insurance. I just find it hard to believe that illegal overrun medical facilities, not in my experience. Medical facilities know how to bounce paupers. Unless it's something critical, illegals don't bother to get medical care (at least in my corner of the woods).

What is the balance?

OK, to make a question even more "interesting", let's assume that all the jobs held by illegals are takes by Americans, and let's be generous all of them are making $10/hr. Which means that most of them will qualify for medicare (illegals don't get) and free lunches for their kids. I doesn't sound you'll save much if anything. Underlying problem - low income jobs, it doesn't matter who does them.
You're doing nothing more than promulgating rhetoric. The only less than desirable jobs that get done by illegals is agriculture. There are many reports and studies out there stating that illegals in other sectors are directly effecting citizens by displacement and lowering wages against them.

If farmers were to pay a "living wage" it would only increase the cost of the final product by mere pennies, instead they pay cash, save on tax obligations and pocket the profit, collect tax sub-sidies, then whine that if they didn't do that they would be out of business.

The rest of your rhetoric has been answered in here numerous times.
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:51 PM
 
4,829 posts, read 4,808,096 times
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Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You're doing nothing more than promulgating rhetoric. The only less than desirable jobs that get done by illegals is agriculture. There are many reports and studies out there stating that illegals in other sectors are directly effecting citizens by displacement and lowering wages against them.

If farmers were to pay a "living wage" it would only increase the cost of the final product by mere pennies, instead they pay cash, save on tax obligations and pocket the profit, collect tax sub-sidies, then whine that if they didn't do that they would be out of business.

The rest of your rhetoric has been answered in here numerous times.
They are lowering wages (like construction, roofing, etc.) because there is a segment of impoverished population that cannot afford $28/hr roofer while making $8/hr at Wal-Mart. There are businesses "catering" to that impoverished segment. Therefore, illegal immigration is not a cause, it's rather an outcome of all encompassing race to the bottom. Of course, there are some well off people desiring a job to be done for less, but most are not wealthy at all.

As for farming, the farmers (or rather agribiz) who gets lion's share of subsidies are into corn&soybeans, it's so heavily mechanized it doesn't need much labor, especially illegal labor running $300k machines. Farmers who employ illegals are into vegetables, fruits (NO government subsidies at all), poultry & meat processing.

To give you an arithmetic prospective, a tomato farmer selling a pound of tomatoes for $0.5/lb, needs to sell about 60,000 pounds/year of tomatoes per every $30,000/year worker GROSS. NET is more like 120,000lbs per every reasonably compensated worker. That's not small/medium farmers number we are talking about. That's big agribusiness scale. In the current price environment a few remaining small to medium farmers (that are not into corn and soy beans) cannot afford even illegals, not speaking of 30,000k/year workers.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:00 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Illegal immigrants are working less than desirable jobs for less than desirable wages. Does it make your "quality of life" better or worse? Simple Question. You get corporate food stuff for less, janitorial services for less, construction for less, road maintenance for less, manufacturing good for less. That's your "gain"

On the other hand, you are complaining about spending more on illegal' medical care & education. All that illegals can "afford" are emergency room butchers (many of whom don't give a dime) shrugging you off unless you are comatose and free clinics. Most of the private doctors will not take you without an insurance. I just find it hard to believe that illegal overrun medical facilities, not in my experience. Medical facilities know how to bounce paupers. Unless it's something critical, illegals don't bother to get medical care (at least in my corner of the woods).

What is the balance?

OK, to make a question even more "interesting", let's assume that all the jobs held by illegals are takes by Americans, and let's be generous all of them are making $10/hr. Which means that most of them will qualify for medicare (illegals don't get) and free lunches for their kids. I doesn't sound you'll save much if anything. Underlying problem - low income jobs, it doesn't matter who does them.
You know, I wish you defenders of illegal aliens would research the facts before you come in here spouting the same old lines that others before you have. No, for the most part illegals are not doing jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage. No, they are no bargain because any so-called savings from their illegal labor is washed out 100 times over by us having to cover their social costs. So no, there is no net gain.

The point is as far as jobs go is that Americans have a right to them and illegals do not. You know that old rule of law thingy that you and your kind don't seem to care much about? Many of these low paying jobs can be taken by our youth and they get most of their support and medical care through their parents so they aren't taking anything from our tax coffers as the illegals are doing for these costs.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:04 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
They are lowering wages (like construction, roofing, etc.) because there is a segment of impoverished population that cannot afford $28/hr roofer while making $8/hr at Wal-Mart. There are businesses "catering" to that impoverished segment. Therefore, illegal immigration is not a cause, it's rather an outcome of all encompassing race to the bottom. Of course, there are some well off people desiring a job to be done for less, but most are not wealthy at all.

As for farming, the farmers (or rather agribiz) who gets lion's share of subsidies are into corn&soybeans, it's so heavily mechanized it doesn't need much labor, especially illegal labor running $300k machines. Farmers who employ illegals are into vegetables, fruits (NO government subsidies at all), poultry & meat processing.

To give you an arithmetic prospective, a tomato farmer selling a pound of tomatoes for $0.5/lb, needs to sell about 60,000 pounds/year of tomatoes per every $30,000/year worker GROSS. NET is more like 120,000lbs per every reasonably compensated worker. That's not small/medium farmers number we are talking about. That's big agribusiness scale. In the current price environment a few remaining small to medium farmers (that are not into corn and soy beans) cannot afford even illegals, not speaking of 30,000k/year workers.
No American business whether they be large or smail has a right to hire illegal aliens. It is the law! If they can't survive without it then they need to fold. Bottom line!
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:24 PM
 
4,829 posts, read 4,808,096 times
Reputation: 6172
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You know, I wish you defenders of illegal aliens would research the facts before you come in here spouting the same old lines that others before you have. No, for the most part illegals are not doing jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage. No, they are no bargain because any so-called savings from their illegal labor is washed out 100 times over by us having to cover their social costs. So no, there is no net gain.

The point is as far as jobs go is that Americans have a right to them and illegals do not. You know that old rule of law thingy that you and your kind don't seem to care much about? Many of these low paying jobs can be taken by our youth and they get most of their support and medical care through their parents so they aren't taking anything from our tax coffers as the illegals are doing for these costs.

I'm not defending anything, I just don't think it matters (financially) in the current economic "paradigm". So, Americans would take illegal' jobs (it's not like they don't work side by side for the same wages already). They would gladly employ you at a meat processing plant, Mexican dominated manufacturing plants, I believe fine people of Iowa are still "hurting" because illegals no longer works at the meat processing plant (yet, few of the Iowan' are stupid enough to take jobs under those conditions).

The primary problem is not illegal immigration, the problem is low wages that don't cover living expenses, medical care, education etc.. Did illegals cause wage collapse? Nope, it started long before illegal immigration got publicized on talk radio. Illegal immigration was an "answer" to the collapsing wages of red blooded Americans. Yup, you go ahead enforce immigration and keep everything else the same, I'll meet under bridge one of these days.

Youth is not allowed to do meat processing, roofing, round the clock agrilabor, and so on by law. Youth and illegals are not competing for the same jobs. I have a news for you, bulk of the low income youth is on MEDICARE, if employer insurance plans for the bottom 40% of workers (if any) are a joke anyway, they suck to the point of being useless.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:50 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
I'm not defending anything, I just don't think it matters (financially) in the current economic "paradigm". So, Americans would take illegal' jobs (it's not like they don't work side by side for the same wages already). They would gladly employ you at a meat processing plant, Mexican dominated manufacturing plants, I believe fine people of Iowa are still "hurting" because illegals no longer works at the meat processing plant (yet, few of the Iowan' are stupid enough to take jobs under those conditions).

The primary problem is not illegal immigration, the problem is low wages that don't cover living expenses, medical care, education etc.. Did illegals cause wage collapse? Nope, it started long before illegal immigration got publicized on talk radio. Illegal immigration was an "answer" to the collapsing wages of red blooded Americans. Yup, you go ahead enforce immigration and keep everything else the same, I'll meet under bridge one of these days.

Youth is not allowed to do meat processing, roofing, round the clock agrilabor, and so on by law. Youth and illegals are not competing for the same jobs. I have a news for you, bulk of the low income youth is on MEDICARE, if employer insurance plans for the bottom 40% of workers (if any) are a joke anyway, they suck to the point of being useless.
What you "think" and what the facts are, are in direct conflict with one another. So our youth won't work at McDonalds and many other public service jobs? Youth to me is any young American who hasn't found a career yet that could extend into their early twenties and college kids wanting to have some spending money. Iowans lined up around the corner for those meat packing jobs. Get your facts straight. If an employer can't find American workers then why doesn't he hire "legal"immigrants? Are they lazy also? Are illegal aliens magically born with the strong work ethnic gene? Please....the only reason some work harder is because they know they will be reported and deported if they don't.

Medicare is for seniors and one doesn't have to be a low income youth to want those jobs. I don't mind our needy, poor American youth having to be on "Medicaid" if their parents are American citizens.

The bottom line is that it is unlawful to hire illegal aliens. I'd like to know why any loyal American would advocate for immigration lawbreakers and the negative impact it has on our own citizens. I am really hoping that you aren't a citizen of this country.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:06 PM
 
7,497 posts, read 9,277,699 times
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Absolutely ridiculous! I'm not one who would really like to deny someone who needs medical care, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:19 PM
 
Location: US
3,074 posts, read 3,336,186 times
Reputation: 1620
I am attaching a series of articles from FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform) which, hopefully, will seriously shed some light on your comments below. For example, take a look at the article below. Engineers here in H-1B Visas are taking jobs from Americans because they take 33% less. Do you really think the owners of the companies are not pocketing the saved labor costs?

FAIR: H-1B Visas: Harming American Workers (http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16997&security=1601&news _iv_ctrl=1841 - broken link)

Let's also look at the truth behind the reason farmers hire illegal immigrants:

"Why then couldn't the agricultural employers use the legal temporary worker program to meet their need for workers rather than hiring illegal aliens? They could, and some do already. However, the protections in that system for both American workers - so that it can be used only if there are not American workers available, and to prevent the program from undercutting wages - and for the foreign temporary workers - setting requirements for housing and wages - make it more expensive for employers than hiring on-the-spot illegal workers."

FAIR: The Wages of Agricultural Workers (http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16977&security=1601&news _iv_ctrl=1010 - broken link)

Clearly there is a benefit to hiring legal temporary workers for agriculture, farming, livestock, but don't you think there's a difference between legal temporary workers and illegal immigrants?

Here is an article that shows how many American jobs have been lost to illegal immigrants:

FAIR: Illegal Aliens Taking U.S. Jobs (http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=24681&security=1601&news _iv_ctrl=1007 - broken link)

I hardly think emergency room physicians, nurses and medical staff are "butchers." Illegal immigrants get superior treatment for free. Have you not read any of the articles and even posts on this board over the past years regarding the millions of dollars spent on illegal immigrant medical care? FAIR put out an article in 2004 that, even then, the annual uncompensated cost of medical care for illegal immigrants in California alone was $1.4 billion.

Immigration reform is greatly needed. Illegals are being highly exploited and Americans are suffering. There is no way illegal immigration should continue.





QUOTE=RememberMee;22455380]Illegal immigrants are working less than desirable jobs for less than desirable wages. Does it make your "quality of life" better or worse? Simple Question. You get corporate food stuff for less, janitorial services for less, construction for less, road maintenance for less, manufacturing good for less. That's your "gain"

On the other hand, you are complaining about spending more on illegal' medical care & education. All that illegals can "afford" are emergency room butchers (many of whom don't give a dime) shrugging you off unless you are comatose and free clinics. Most of the private doctors will not take you without an insurance. I just find it hard to believe that illegal overrun medical facilities, not in my experience. Medical facilities know how to bounce paupers. Unless it's something critical, illegals don't bother to get medical care (at least in my corner of the woods).

What is the balance?

OK, to make a question even more "interesting", let's assume that all the jobs held by illegals are takes by Americans, and let's be generous all of them are making $10/hr. Which means that most of them will qualify for medicare (illegals don't get) and free lunches for their kids. I doesn't sound you'll save much if anything. Underlying problem - low income jobs, it doesn't matter who does them.[/quote]
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:34 PM
 
4,829 posts, read 4,808,096 times
Reputation: 6172
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
What you "think" and what the facts are, are in direct conflict with one another. So our youth won't work at McDonalds and many other public service jobs?

Your Fantasy, few illegals work at McD. Believe it or not, it's an "upscale" fast food joint, most McD wouldn't hire anybody but young & energetic, not fat (big no), not trailer trash looking, etc.. Maybe, in some immigrant dominated areas they would hire a young Mexican since upwardly mobile legal crowd is not readily available. Other than that, if you are an illegal, I wish you BIG, big luck to get hired with McD. Being fat and legal doesn't help either.

Quote:
Iowans lined up around the corner for those meat packing jobs. Get your facts straight.
I've heard they were busing Texas bums in for a while, I haven't heard about Iowans lining up.

Quote:
If an employer can't find American workers then why doesn't he hire "legal"immigrants? Are they lazy also?
They do, they don't care, if you are willing to put up with wages and working conditions, no health insurance for a year, etc. meat processing plants want to talk to you. There are plenty of legal Somalians in the heartland of Nebraska. Of course, meat processing business model requires to can your arse after a year (if you last) not to pay meager insurance. And don't forget about injuries. Contrary to talk radio myths injured illegal Mexicans don't bask themselves in the bonanza of free medical care, they ship themselves back to mexico leaving their severed fingers and hands behind. Big savings on work comp and disability.

Quote:
Are illegal aliens magically born with the strong work ethnic gene? Please....the only reason some work harder is because they know they will be reported and deported if they don't.
What's work ethic? Yup, it's working well regardless of your treatment and compensation. It's not illegal' work ethics that matters. You can NOT work harder on a meat processing line, you keep up with conveyer or not. If you don't keep up, well... you know that part.

Quote:
Medicare is for seniors and one doesn't have to be a low income youth to want those jobs. I don't mind our needy, poor American youth having to be on "Medicaid" if their parents are American citizens.
That's what I meant "medicaid", take that away and welcome to the 3rd world.

Quote:
The bottom line is that it is unlawful to hire illegal aliens. I'd like to know why any loyal American would advocate for immigration lawbreakers and the negative impact it has on our own citizens. I am really hoping that you aren't a citizen of this country.
It's unlawful. So? Starving or obeying American law, what would I choose? Besides, it's unlawful to hire illegals knowingly. It's a big legal crutch. Employers (even meat processing plants) do require SS cards, and they legally can claim that they are in compliance. Have you heard of anyone being convicted of hiring illegals? I've thought so. Those people are not stupid.
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